What is it that causes our engines to be so under powered? Is it the ECU's, or what?

Keep in mind that the 5sfe and the 7afe are old engines with decade old architecture...

having said that, its just the way they are dsigned, They were built for economy, not performance. Not all 4 cylinder engines are made equal.

This post has been edited by orvillescelica: Apr 24, 2004 - 4:44 PM

-Rjb23+Apr 24, 2004 - 2:09 PM

Its not because theres no demand, theres always been a demand for power. However, Toyota had the Supra and used that as power. The Celica was the sporty, eco car. And if you think about it, The Integra Type R, Honda Civic Si, Mazda MX-6, RX-7 were all import cars in that time era with plenty of power.

-Supersprynt+Apr 24, 2004 - 3:05 PM

I think you are wrong sinner96ST...I agree with Supersprynt.

Back in the day Nissan, Infiniti, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Acura, Hyundai, Mazda, Lexus and Subaru all had high powered cars.

Nissan - 300ZX, 240SX (Non-Turboed Silvias)
Infiniti - G20
Toyota - Supra, MR2, Celica Alltrac (GT4)
Mitsubishi - 3000GT, Eclipse GSX, VR4's, Galant VR-4's
Honda - Civic SI, Prelude
Acura - ITR, GSR, Legend, NSX, CL, TL
Hyundai - Tiburon, Elantra (Have been out for more than a decade)
Mazda - RX-7, MX-6, MX-5, MX-3
Lexus - SC300, SC400, GS300, GS400
Subaru - 2.5RS

Sinner you are comparing with the Solara, GT-S celica, and MR-S which aren't as high powered as the Eclipse GSX's, RX-7's, MR2....etc

PLUS NOW, there are no RX-7's, supras, MR2's, ALLTRACS, but there are the few new cars which are sweet.

Its not really the demand but the decision of what cars to bring out to the USA and what to make. The Auto Manufacturers seem to go in a phase every 5 years where there are Super cars, then economic cars, then super duper cars, the demand of cars probably more effect on the cheaper end....performance cars tend to be costly and focused on people who have 'money."

If you think about it on the evolution of celicas the 5GC and 6GC are a lot better than the 7GC in that they had the 3SGTE.....7GC's didn't come out with AWD turbo cars to compete with the Rally cars out now. Concluding that the Auto Manufacturers just decide what they want to sell and what they think would make more of the money during that perioud.

-Jabberwock+Apr 24, 2004 - 3:42 PM

-orvillescelica+Apr 24, 2004 - 9:42 PM

Well the matrix is pretty good for toyota...hehe maybe the caldina has a chance in the US..hehe?

Honestly 94-99 did have a lot more high powered cars than now.
Here is a list of cars that I think are better than cars now.

Nissan 300ZX...Twin Turbo and can be modded to be faster than the 350Z
Nissan Silvia...not really a US car but who doesn't have a SR20DET in their
Toyota Supra...nuff said
Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX....the newer generation just can't compare
Mitsubishi 3000GT...can you say VR...
Mazda RX-7...RX-8 isn't as good and the RX-7 TT ROTARY!

6GC out there today...man GT-4 ST205 just kicks A$$!!! WRX can't compare except for the STI...RSX has no chance....350Z I would rather have the GT4.

But you are probably comparing to the US SPECS hehe...

However the output of 94-99 was much greater than now. 300ZX VS. 350Z, Supra VS. ? Eclipse GSX VS. Eclipse GT 3000GT vs. EVO(not a good comparison though) RX-7 VS. RX-8

You get the point but I am sure that the newer ones would not easily beat the older models. 94-99 was great for performance but sucked for American 6GC's.

Compare those and you will notice the drop in horsepower but mainly because of the disappearence of turbos.

But you have to understand that the reason TOYOTA didn't have much of a line in 94-99 is that the supra was doing great for high performance, LEXUS was doing great for luxury, and toyota had the moset sales for any car....camry.


Now if you compare cars worldwide....6GC's were just on the top of performance with the Beams and GT-4's.

A Hyundai Elantra!? Oh god, that might be worse than a Cavalier....

The only advantage i see the newer ones having is that they are lighter... or should be for that matter
but the Newer celicas do have more HP then the older ones of the same type(GT, ST ect...)

But all in all the older cars are better i got my celca b/c the new ones look gay and dont drive as well in my opinion.

hehe yeah elantras are pretty bad but thats what hyundai has racing.

I love the look of my car, but honestly, i'm paying sports car insurance for a car with not even 110 @ the crank. It seems to me if I were to buy a newer (insert model here) that it would come with almost double the horsepower right out of the factory. I hear a lot of people ask why toyota decided to put a 7afe or a 5sfe in to a celica shell. It just seems like a lawnmower engine in a lambo, it makes absolutely no sense.

A lot of those cars you mentioned were highly tuneable, it just seems that given the release of toyota's previous sports cars, (mr-2, alltrac, supra, celica) you would've think they would have carried them all the way up until 2000, if not further. Hence the reason why I throw out the demand reasoning out there.

I should do more reading to find out exactly why they just quit selling MR-2's and Supra's in the states. They just didn't sell? If the demand was always there, why not stick with a highly tuneable 3sgte or 2jz until this very day? Seems they did it everywhere else but the United States. I've seen crazy numbers come out of 3s / 2jz dynos with stock blocks. It's about money too but really, having a 'sport' divison of your car company would logically make sense to appeal to the gearheads & speedfreaks that are on this planet..

This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 9:49 PM

-sinner96ST+Apr 24, 2004 - 10:48 PM

yeah.. the engines are meant to last forever, but as of todays standards, they are kinda dinosaurs. I mean mine is a 96 and i have the same engine that was put in to a GEO PRISM.

This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 10:09 PM

toyota put lower motors in the celica at that time because for toyota, it wasn't their sports cars... which were the mr2 and the supra....

i dont see the big hype about the celica gts, its only got the 180hp at 7,600 rpm , at its peak

2 of my friends bought celicas , both autos, one a gt, one a gts

the gt had intake and exhaust and the gts was stock and the gt won

the intake and exhaust was probably cheaper than the cost to upgrade to GTS

now if you want the car sure the extra 40 hp is nice but remember because of vvti-l its only at its peak that it gets such a gain

-brianforster+Apr 25, 2004 - 4:01 AM

Im sick of hearing a bunch of kids bitch about cars that arent being made, because even if they were being made you wouldn't be able to afford them! >>

I'd like a show of hands of who can lay down 30k-50k for a new high end sports car? Just what I thought, be happy they made all those great cars in the 90's and now they are cheap enough for punks like us to buy.

And even still theres plenty still being made, Wrxsti, Evo, 350z, g35, rx8, mrs(has potential!), celica gts (also has potential), s2000, rsx, srt4(for the dumbestic guys) and Im sure theres more I cant think of.

Some of those dont have huge numbers, but a little tuning and maybe a turbo and your in business. And stock all those cars would spank a 6gc.

i assume its due to fuel, the 100ron rating of jap fuel allows them to run advanced ignition timing, this apparently gives a higher power rating.
Also car companies have to modify cars for each different market. Americans generally prefer softer suspension compared to the europeans according to car manufacturers so they have to modify that. This obviously brings about a problem with higher end sports cars. Youve got to think about the FIA rules of homolgation too for rally cars, there obviously wasnt the demand in the states in the early 90s for a rally derived japanese sports car.

Another thing is that the US has many trade rules that benefit american companies and penalise non american companies.Toyota probably thought at the time after learning lessons from st185 sales, that it wasnt worth going through all the US regulations, on a car that doesnt make them much of a profit anyway.

This post has been edited by uzthedentist: Apr 25, 2004 - 8:30 AM

To answer the original question, toyota cars with an FE head is designed for fuel economy. The angle between the valves is very small and restricts the way the engine breathes. The valve angle on a GE head is around 45 degrees and this allows it to breath a lot better and put out more power. Even the older 3SGE motors can put out power with minimal work.

-TRDCelicaST+Apr 24, 2004 - 8:39 PM

hey guys, i must apologize for the hyundia owner's insolence iwas asleep while he did that and wasn't aware of his idiocracy...yet agian i'm sorry

First things First- AMEN KWANZA... Nice to see people who think with their brains and not with their imagination... Anyways, people seem to be forgetting the 2 main resons why all those fast powerful imports were never brought into the states, or even considered so- Emmissions and the strong yen in the mid 90's... Yes there were plenty of performance models overseas, and some were fourtunate enough to be sold in the states like the supra and RX7. problem was, it was very difficult to pass emissions with these cars while still maintaining their power. perfect example of this were the supra and MR2 turbos. Yes you could get them in the US, but not california toward the end of their lifespans- they couldent meet the emmissions requirements as they aged and the rules became more strict. Rumor has it subaru wanted to bring the wrx over here before the new generation debuted, but they just couldent make it pass emmissions testing. So even if the car was lucky enough to pass the emissions, the yen was very strong compared to the us dollar, making ALL japanese cars more expensive than most competiotors. Thats partially why the 6th gen gt-4 did not make it over here, it would have cost in the low 30 thousand range, and thats 10 yeras ago. If you look at the price of a 93 RX7- base list was 32,500... 2 years later in 95 that cost had risen to 37,000 even... 93 300GT VR-4 was 37,200. In 99 it departed at $44,600- a $7400 increase. basically, the economy of the time was a big factor in these types of cars loosing popularity, they just ended up being outpriced due to unfavorable exchange rates.