my bad kwanza. i totally misunderstood the vvt-i system. The power certainly does kick in about 4500 tho.

mmmorg - the st185 v st202 beams - would be a close one i think. never had the opportunity to check that tho

yes!!!!! it realy does kick around 4000rpm!!!!! well my engine does...... and you can feel it!!!!! it's not like v-tec maiking noise and everything it just kicks!!!!!

Whatever makes you guys feel better. You've already agreed VVT-i isn't what you thought it was... yet you still want to go on about "kicks"... You ever realized that is normal with sporty engines? It's not something that needs emphasis. That, or you haven't ever driven something that really "kicks"...

Oh well, I'm done with this pointless discussion. It's pretty much agreed that the GT4 can out accelerate an SSIII, but I'll put my money on the SSIII on a track. Power isn't everything.

-Kwanza26+Jan 14, 2005 - 2:00 PM

but what about the awd system? (for the track)

Kwanza26 Did you ever drive a 4WD sports car???First time i hear somebody talking about such an issue FWD vs AWD on the track,for 1/4 ok but on the track???????!!!!!!!I am confused guys!!!!

-Magic+Jan 14, 2005 - 9:26 PM
It's not a matter of AWD vs FWD. It's weight and power. The biggest factor would be the GT4 is much heavier, and is turbo charged. It may be fast, but Celica guys here act like it's the best thing since sliced bread. Unless you've sat behind the wheel of a bunch of different cars in race situations, you can't assume how a car will handle in the low-speed tight corners. I have driven turbo AWD cars before, all of them. WRX's, Evos, Alltracs, DSMs... all of them. Let me ask you this... what makes you think a GT4 can out-handle a lighter weight n/a car in the tight corners? The power difference is small enough, IMO, that a well driven SSIII can take a GT4. That's all I'm saying.

Kwanza26 my previous cars,ALL JDM and heavy modified with many proves:

JDM Honda Prelude H22A 2.2 Vtec
JDM Impreza WRX Version 4
JDM TOYTA GT4

I am the owner of the Celica Club Cyprus with more than 250 Celicas including (SS1,SS2,SS3,GT4,5th Gen and 7th Gen) ALL JDM not USDM and TRUST me you HAVENT even close to the 1/10 of the Celicas that i have drive.

I am 28 years old born in the racing cars (my father was a professional Rally driver for more than 20 years) and i dont undertsand why i am continue this discussion with you and many other drivers.

We are talking about SSIII and GT4 in the Track???????????????????? >>

I think a responsible administrator of this site should close this post.

Friendly

-Kwanza26+Jan 14, 2005 - 9:35 PM

Power is not everything, agreed. And the Four loses a lot of power to the wheels due to the complex drivetrain, so it's closer than most people would think from a roll in ao straight line.

Where it slaughters the SSIII is the ability to get on the power earlier in the corners, so by the time the SSIII driver is past the apex and putting the power down, the Four is already on hard boost and pulling away.

It's also got brakes that are likely to last more than 3 laps....

-Magic+Jan 15, 2005 - 9:10 AM
Buddy... you know NOTHING of what I do... so why are you even tripping? Don't assume. I didn't say anything towards you personally so what's with you questioning me? If anything, you just talk the talk... You guys have this worshipping attitude towards the GT4, when in actuality, it's only a decently good chassis, hence why it only lasted as it did in WRC. I've been around the block and back again when it comes to track racing, AutoX, Solo, Pro Solo, even had a few Club runs, and of course, drag. I may be young, but this is the sh!t I grew up around. My dad raced, my uncle raced, lots of my family members race. You can talk all you want about how great the GT4 is and how we Americans know little because we haven't driven an ST205, etc... but the truth is in the chassis design. You're not gonna easily convince me that an ST205 will simply slaughter an SSIII based on power and drivetrain. I, unlike others, know far better than that. The SSIII will take the corner entries almost everytime. The GT4 has Awesome brakes as Mr_E says, but it's a tank. It weighs what... almost 500 pounds more than an SSIII? The weight difference in a tight track will equalize things. This is EASY to predict. If you have as much experience as you say... you'd agree. Mr_E agrees to some degree, and I agree with his statement that the GT4 will always catch up at the corner exit because of the turbo... but depending on the track, this can be nullified. Think about it before you start worshipping again. Same chassis, same suspension. SSIII gives up only about 50-60 hp and torque... but makes up for it with lightness. Corner entry speeds and n/a response is far better than all-out power dude... especially when the cars are so close.

I don't know why i have the impulse, but i've honestly never really believed in the ST205. Kwanza, and anybody else, if you choose to believe me or not, i don't really care, but i've always had the same onsights as kwanza is talking about, and i was thinking the same things kwanza's last post said throughout this entire spieal. This is really retarted. I don't care if you think you're a real tuner or not, kwanza's a real tuner, and by-goli, i'll be confident enough to say the same for myself. Some of the things i see on this site or just blown out of proportion. Some people talk out of there mouths with the money, and then some people talk from inside the engine bay, who would you rather believe?

>> >> for all you GT4 owners lets built an "Army" with our "TANKS"

>> >> >> >> >> >>

Last post

Kwanza26 my friend u are talking bull sh it . EVERY SINGLE TIME i tried to catch up magics or tufys gt4 IN ANY ROAD i could only see the rear lights getting smaller. and dont start telling me that i have an SS2 and not than SS3 cos both cars have the same fcuking beams engine.

when i drove a gt4 the main trick about it its the way it sticks on the road. almost never have to really slow down on a corner and that is cos of the 4wd. to turn on the same speed with my car i will meet very closely any field pole or building is on the opposite side of the road

further more i will agree with magic that this i topic with no actual meaning cos u have absolutely no experience with st205


This post has been edited by recycle: Jan 15, 2005 - 8:41 PM

and cos u mentioned the short wrc life of st205 let me tell u that the toyota was banned from wrc cos a patent they made with a belt enlarging the opening of the turbo at high revs.

Hahah... you guys can talk all you want. It doesn't bother me. I deal with people like you on a daily basis and I let them have their ego. It's no big deal to me. It's the blind leading the blind. When it comes down to it, experience is what counts. Experience comes from seeing things, doing thing, and not letting some super ego hold you to their ideals. There are other great cars out there...

First off... I'm not talking ****. I said something VERY basic (SSIII can take the GT4 on a tight track)... and you (the people who worship the ST205) just can't handle it. That really got magic's panties all up in a bunch for some reason. On the other hand, Mr_E seemed to not think my comment was something, shall we say, *unthinkable* *GASP*! I could care less. You can give your opinions all day long... but you've yet to say anything but express your opinions. No facts, no reasons. I at least gave my reasons for what I said. I already know how magic thinks, and considering you all are in a little "group"... it's probably the same ideal all around (with exception to neoklis... I still have some respect for him).

To close... you guys are fighting a fools battle. I doubt you want to compare resumes against me. I rarely see any of you write up anything insightful about engines and performance. I don't see you guys, with your VAST JDM ST205 knowledge provide anything aside from fancy pictures of cyprus meets. If what I said was so stupid and unthinkable... why is it that only your bunch are attacking me? I know there are other members out there who consider me quite rude and arrogant and would jump at the chance to attack me... >>

and recycle: Didn't Toyota replaced the ST205 with the Corolla Hatchback before they bowed out? It wasn't just because of the illegal turbo...

-Kwanza26+Jan 15, 2005 - 11:56 PM

They didn't.

ST205 got Toyota banned for 2 years.
They returned under the WRC car rules with the Corolla, which was heavily based on the ST205. Changes in the sorts of stages run meant that higher cockpit and a shorter wheelbase made for a faster car.

Carlos Seinz still thinks the GT-Four is his favorite rally car ever.

Anyway, back on topic. SSIII is lighter and gets slightly less power to the wheels. But it gets power to the wrong wheels. The front end has to do all the turning, all the power and 80% of the braking.

On a track (and I've done this with both a UK spec GT and a 2ZZ powered 7th gen) the GT-Four is significantly quicker. Once spun up, the 2ZZ has a chance of keeping station down the straights, but loses serious distance out of the corners. I imagine a Beams powered SSIII to be very similar.

And the point I'm trying to make is that the Four isn't a very good track car. It's too heavy and the 4wd isn't much of an advantage on nice smooth tarmac.

On a real road, it's gone. Over the hills and far away. Doubly so if it's wet.

If it makes you feel any better, on my local track I'm a mobile chicane for all the Catafields that fly around.....

This post has been edited by Mr_E: Jan 16, 2005 - 9:52 AM

-recycle+Jan 15, 2005 - 6:24 PM

And this is garbage too. 4wd doesn't change the laws of physics. The Four doesn't grip like hell because it's 4wd. It grips like hell because it's got trick suspension and huge great sticky tyres.

The SSIII also has this. What the SSIII cannot do is allow the driver to get back on the power early, as it will simply understeer off the road. That is where the Four is crushingly effective. Huge brakes scrub the speed off, decent suspension gets it turned in and then a huge shove of turbo torque (and it's torque that matters) hooks up all four wheels and fires you down the next straight bit. The extra power is probably eaten up compensating for the complex drivetrain and extra mass.

-Mr_E+Jan 16, 2005 - 5:57 PM

can u over steer with a fwd car?

-recycle+Jan 16, 2005 - 1:45 PM

Not under power. Lift-off oversteer is possible depending on how the car is setup.

but is impossible for a stock fwd celica to oversteer on any dry road. even on wet oversteering is never controlled. this is what i mean never use the brakes. oversteering does the brakes work.

Lets send this topic to best motoring, and let them test both cars >> >>

ok guy's we've got another meet on saturday....

we'll see if we can get some sort of road test of all four cars worked out, if the roads stay dry and snow free......