how come honda engines seem to have more power and boost more compaired to toyota engines. Well to be more specific, the b18 VS the 7afe.

I've heard earlier, under boost conditions the variable valve timing actually hinders performance.

so why does a supercharge b18 engine at 6psi make 190 whp with no aftermarket fuel management?
where as a 7afe only can make 170 whp with a turbo and all the dooo dads? ( i dont remember how much boost nik was using.)


it just doesn't make sense. 7afe and b18 both have 1.8 liter engines. And the 7afe head is suppose to be a good turbo head?

ahem...
3s-gte.... 700whp...
2jz-gte... infinity rwhp...

i know i know.. there are some motors built to make massive HP under boost.

But the d16 can make 200 whp which has less displacement then the 7afe. Not to mention its a SOHC.

the valves on the b16 and b 18's on hondas are angled different and provide better air flow, adding more HP.

and nik was runing 9.5 PSI on his kit, and ill be runnig that soon allso cuz i just bought his kit.... >>

i understand how the the B series engines from honda has better flow and make more power.

But isn't the D series motors from honda the economy engine. Why does it make more power then the 7AFE when boosted?

the biggist thing .. That the 7afe has a slave cam. So its kinda a fake DOHC That is one of the biggist problems, besides the fact that it has weaker rods, a porley designed cam shafts and crank, also has a economey based head design.

the d16 engine can make a whole lot more than 200whp, lol. i know someone who's got a d16 engine with a full aftermarket turbo kit running 9psi and he's at more than 200whp... all he's done to the internals is.. nothing! he just put on a aftermarket stage 3 racing/street clutch (ACT). oh and i guess you can't forget the rice, that must add at least 40hp >>

ok doing a b series honda engine against the 7afe is a lil unfair... sooo lets make it fair.... 4age black top unboosted... 180 i think b16 unboosted ... please tell me how much?

-DMC

B series is a performance enging, where as the a series is economy engine that is like compairing a weed eater engine to a 60 cc dirt bike engine.

-Rjb23+Apr 17, 2005 - 12:45 PM

a-series

I could tell you guys why... but It would really be more interesting to hear you all try and figure it out first... heh...

Guys Honda knows what they are doing with their engines, they can make a performance engine that gets better gas mileage than an economy engine built by Toyota. Its all in engine design, Honda simply makes them better. Better heads, blocks, cam design's, pistons, rods..etc. I will always like Toyota more than Honda, but plain and simple Honda has Toyota beat in the car department, when you start talking trucks, Toyota has it hands down. Stupid Ridgeline.

Look up the new CTD-i engine from Honda, if thats not well engineered I don't know what is. Crazy stuff can be achieved by Honda's, Toyota's can do it as well but you need to have specific engines. i.e. S 3S-GTE or 2JZ-GTE to make high amounts of horsepower.

Honda's can make lots of power out of the lowest end engines. It's nuts, they simply flow better and are better designed. Now I'm being redundant so I'm going to stop.

-Kwanza26+Apr 17, 2005 - 9:40 AM

plz do tell, im really interested in the reasons.

1. more R&D has been put into extracting power from honda engines

2. B series engines have higher compression ratios

3. Toyota wasnt joking when they designed the F head as an economy head.

4. all the honda engines start out with higher power.

those are my guesses

let move out from the performance engine topic, because its gonna cause a mess of this discusion with whois performance engine is better.. ( B16 vs 4age .. ect)

its stricty the D16 vs the 7AFE.


the D16 non-vtec can make 115hp, with 110 tq @ 4500 RPM ( 97 civic HX coupe) and gets 34 city 38 highway mpg

the 7afe can make 105 hp, with 110 tq with 27 city 34 mpg highway mpg.


Both these engine have around the same hp, both these engines are econony engines.

YET the D16 can make more power when boosted with a SOHC?
The 7afe has more displacement and a DOHC, yet it cant make more power.

Also dosent the A series have its roots in the eary 80's, whereas the B series motors are much newer like early 90's?

I think it has a lot to do with the close cams and singal sprocket driven system of the 7a head. And with it, and the 5s being the same. These produce a more effecenct burning of fuel in the combustion chamber. It also allows for more low end torque but less higher end power do to the single spocket design and unibility to do as much sacavaging. With this lower end power, it only makes sence that the 7a and 5s engines would have longer strokes. The longer strokes makes it very difficult to get high rpm horsepower and boost power. Without the high winding ability, you just can't spool a turbo up as well. I'm not positive this is right, but I think it is. Kwansa, who close am I?

-Bigmeanbulldog55+Apr 17, 2005 - 9:26 PM


but scavenging is only help full in a N/A motor. Under boost conditions you want the Intake valves to open later and the exhaust valves to open sooner.

And what is the deal about grind the 7afe cams? Grind down the lobes? So the valves open less?

I might be wrong on this but the last time I pulled the valve cover on a D16 it had two cams with one riding a slave gear. In case anyone was wondering it was from a 1997 Honda Civic EX. I'm not a big Honda fan since they don't pose a challenge like the Celica does, so I never bothered learning more than I need to know about them.

i'd just guess it's the honda is more acceptable to boost.

i dont know hondas, i dont know the compression ratio, since you said 6psi, i can guess it can be as high as 11, because 6 aint much

if that's the case, watch it TRY to hit 9, it should be toast unless those internals are hercules.(sp?)

i dont know about the valve angles of the 7A, but i do know the 5S has 22.3deg, which is for the eco-design and i've always felt that's a part of it's restriction. Since i know little about this i leave it alone...

What type of supercharger are we talking about here?
if running low boost shouldn't a supercharger be the better applicant?

-hanyo+Apr 18, 2005 - 11:20 AM
That is scavanging. Scavanging is helpful no matter if it's a turbo or not anyway. How could it not be?

-Consynx+Apr 18, 2005 - 11:33 AM

I've always, and will continue to argue that a supercharger is the best bet on a 5S-FE for the reasons of no high rmp power, and lots of low end torque. The engine is just a lot better sutted for it.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Apr 18, 2005 - 11:26 AM

-gh0st_d0g+Apr 17, 2005 - 5:06 PM

Sorry I meand F series not A as in head design.

This post has been edited by Rjb23: Apr 18, 2005 - 1:26 PM

ok if you want to do a 7afe vs b-series

1.honda dohc =toyota slave cam
2.honda head for performance= toyota eco
3.compression honda is higher = toyota 9.5
4.bore and stroke is different i think
5.strength of the internals and block

i would rather put up a 4ag series engine to a b-series honda its a better comparsion

when you boost something that starts with 10.5 then starting a 9.5 you get more power to point (dentination) but you cant boost to much

Here's a simple way to look at it... more horsepower vs. torque = head can flow larger volume. More torque vs. horsepower = head flows less volume, but has higher velocity. Strictly talking horsepower... the 7A barely matches a D16 in making horsepower, so same would be true if both engines were boosted. The main reason however, that a D16 can make more power per psi is its oversquared design. It's a 90mm stroke with a 7000 rpm redline, which has been proven to spin fairly reliably at 7500-8000 rpms. The bottom-end is fairly well built. Comparatively speaking, most toyota tech guys who have built 7A's and such, don't reccomend spinning the 7A block pas 7200-7500 rpms. That said, the D16 has more use of its breathing at higher rpms so it has more room to make horsepower. Make sense? Also mind you, there are many many versions of the D16... VTEC, VTEC-E, non-VTEC, all slightly different, and all will produce different numbers under boost, but the most basic reason that the D16 can make more power... it's initial design made more power, and it's stock head can make more power un-modified. A modded 7AFE head will bump the 7A past the D16...

As for the B16/18 vs. 7AFE... again, strictly horsepower here, same reason as above... even better head design. Typically speaking, not having VTEC will make tuning a whole lot easier and will make the engine more predictable... but I've seen some fairly decent turbo VTEC builds. It's a matter of taste.

-darksecret+
There's only one cam... but there's also a row of rockers... ;]

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 19, 2005 - 2:42 AM

well first of all, you guys keep saying turbo this, supercharger that, if your gana compare them you gata be spacific every turbo is diff. a turbo that you would put on a honda is not gana be the same as one you would put on a toyota, you gata be spacific, you can put a tiny little turbo on a b16 and get pretty good results, but if you put a big one on it the results would suck because the little motor just cant push it. but if you put a tiny little turbo on a much bigger toyota motor then the results will probilby suck because its not enough, if you put a bigger turbo on it then your results will be better.

the motors your all talking about are very diff. and each one can give pretty good results but only if you put on parts that are right for it.

I like how a motor that toyota maid 10 years ago is still far better then thoes honda put out only a few years ago.

[/quote]
There's only one cam... but there's also a row of rockers... ;]
[right][snapback]273768[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I can't remember my girl has a Lancer now so I can't check, I remeber the VIN was YJ8 or something that ment it was the VTEC version, it's been a year now. I do remember that when we opened the cover there looked like more grease and build up than in the oil pan. I don't like Hondas but they do have reliable motors.

Kwanza, just to add to you for those who are confused why reving higher is a good thing(because in some cases no/little power difference can come out)
the equation in it's most simplistic:
Power = Torque x Angular Velocity