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words of a wize man

Thanks Kwanza26



(notice quote date)

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Nov 14, 2006 - 10:11 PM

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Kwanza is a smart guy, and definately knows his stuff. But when he says stuff like that, it just makes him look like a jerk. Yeah, it's true, if you really want to do it, then do it. But you've got to have fun talking about it and seeing if it's even possible by whatever your standards are. Be happy Kwanza, I hope you get your passion for cars back.

i definately did not mean to get anybdy riled up about the whole thing.

the engine in my car will be pretty much done in 20k, period. it will need to be replaced or rebuilt. end of story. so sometime in the middle of next year, there will be the opportunity for me to replace the engine with more of the same, or something "better."

i have spent ALOT of time compling information about the swaps people have, what other parts they have with them (turbo, ems, etc.) to try and figure out what is going to be the best. there are alot of options, and i'm still trying to find the right one for me.

the few things i want:

1. decent fuel economy (regular gas is a plus)
2. ease of maintenance (i don't want to be fighting sparkplugs from the firewall side of a v6, etc.) and parts availability (i would like to be able to stop at a murrays and get regular maintenance parts if needed, like a timing belt, for example)
3. minimal fringe expenditures (i don't want to spend a bunch of extra money to rebuild a turbo, etc. i don't need to be constantly throwing money at it when i'm done, either)
4. reasonable entry cost. a blacktop 3sge would be my first choice if money weren't an issue. i would like to keep the clip around $2k if possible.

i'm not interested in more that 200 hp or so. the primary goal is a daily driven tsm-class autocross car. the reason the 2azfe interested me is that it's got alot more torque than a 5sfe, and a little more horsepower. it runs on regular unleaded, has an aftermarket that is growing exponentially, and is very new. by very new, i mean that you can buy a clean low mileage motor domestically for under 2k.

i'm wary of a 3sgte swap because the engines available domestically are either 15 years old or rwd, and they tend to be high mileage. i'm also uncomfortable with buying an engine from japan. i know that alot of people stand by the quality of the imported ones, but i just don't like the idea. you have to wonder why they would be selling them here. you'd think that if the 3stge was the best engine toyota ever made, the japanese public would buy every last one of them. the only ways they'd end up here are if there's a reason they don't want them in japan, or they're laughing all the way to the bank on how much we'll pay for them because they're worth so much less there.

on top of that, it's kind of hard to argue any issues that could come up with a clip when you've paid a sh*tload of money just to get it here. if i can get a totalled and mostly parted tc for a few grand, i'd be thrilled to pull the engine, trans, harness, and ecu myself. hell, there's alot of money to be made in breaking cars, i could recoup alot of money by buying one nearly complete and parting myself.

i'm not going to argue that the 3sgte isn't a great engine--it absolutely is. but in order to do the swap RIGHT, it's alot of money on a good intercooler, additional engine management, turbo, bov, wg, etc.....none of which is necessary for an n/a swap. yes, it's more horsepower, but there is no doubt in my mind that i could build a 2azfe that would put down 175, which is enough for me. when i get a 350 hp car, it's not going to be fwd, period.

if anybody thinks that i would "just do it" they can get buggered. everyone that does a swap does some research first. i am of the mind that it's stupid to just buy a clip and hope i can get things to fit. right now, it's pretty much down to this, 3sgte or 5sfte. i'm actually still planning on a 5sfte, but i'm also weighing the other options carefully because i'm NOT going to do this twice.

talking about it IS going to do something. if enough people with valuable input contribute, i'll scratch this one off the list, too. i would never have asked if it were a simple "do it" kind of thing.

thanks to everyone that has contributed alot of useful information, specifically k-esd, bigmeanbulldog, kwanza, and tweak.

i appreciate everybody's opinions even if i don't agree.

^^Sounds like you need a 5sfe or 5sfte. I think you could get 200lbs-ft of torque from a 5sfe NA, and something like 170hp. With a turbo, it's upwards of 400-500hp. But, it's cost/benifit. A nice NA 5sfe would be great for autocross. That's what I'll build if I decided to get out of the STS class.

More 2zafe talk, less debate on why we should be talking about it.

word. happy to oblige.

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This has V6 writen all over it, well... except maybe where you shun the V6 with spark plug accessibility

a picture is worth a thousand words

this is what you'd be looking at from the side


This picture shows the clearance between the intake manifold and the rear head


Changing the spark plugs on the V6 is a breeze, easily accessible unless you're 4 ft tall and it only takes 1/2 more the time of changine spark plugs on a 5SFE.

I have to admit swapping a V6 is much more complex than a 3SGTE but you get all the advantages with nearly no disavantages. And guess what, it's been done before !! so that means 2 things for you, 1 it's possible (or probable I should say), 2 there's acutal information specificly about swapping a MZ motor into a celica.... only bad part is most of it is stuck in my head and i'm too lazy to type it ALL down, however I will answer all questions that are asked to me. So there is still research to do to know those questions.

That aside, you're on the right track with your project. There is plenty of choice for engines out there, make a (realistic) decision based on what YOU want. Unless proven otherwize, the 2AZFE is not a good candidate


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Off topic

Kwanza26 may sound like a jerk but he is far from being one. A real jerk would plain and simply have no value in his words. Every word Kwanza26 says can be taken as good information... if it sounds like an insult, it's probably true ! Take it as constructive critisism.
I know what is meant tho, at first I didn't like the guy but I came to realize, he's willing to get into details about explaining things and devoting a good amount of time to write all about it. That shows his good will.

no time to finish, gtg to work

I have to say I don't see the value in the engine for us. It would be alot of custom work for what? You could drop in a beams if you want n/a and a four banger or just go v6. It would be cool to see, but for the amount of work I think you'd be better off with another engine.

props to everyone with a v6 swap...looks like it's a great option. but could you add a turbo or supercharger easily? i'm not saying you want/need to, or that i would end up wanting more power than that, but anyone can tell you...the more power you have...the more you want.

it's really starting to seem that the general consensus on the 2AZFE is "no."

i thought so to begin with, i just needed to be convinced.

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That was the same general consensus when people talked about the 3mzfe in the Celica. "Why go with a heavy V6 that is hard to work on when you have a proven power plant of a 3sgte?" Those who have done it to Celica's and MR2's are more than happy with them. You can turbo or supercharge the V6 motors, they make a tone of power. I think this swap will be put on hold until someone with money decides they want to do it and does it. Then they'll come on here talking about the big improvement in power and actual less weight, and everyone will tell them how awsome that is. There are way to many drag racers on here for a Celica site. And they'll bash on little NA motors that can't make the "peak" hp that a 3sgte can. If I could get away with swapping that motor, it would be great. Still no better than the 3-4th gen 3sge, but cool. The light weight and power potential is there. Aftermarket is great. What more needs to be known about this motor before it's a canidate for swapping? It would possibly be more reliable than a 3sge as well.

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The V6 could be turbo'd and maybe supercharged depending if the blower fits in the bay with the hood closed. Turbo-ing is more realistic tho, sure to fit. (hint: turbo goes over the tranny, both manifolds join there). however if one plans to do turbo V6, they should go for a VZ motor (3VZFE or 5VZFE)

FYI a 3MZFE is ~60lbs heavier than a 5SFE and it's lighter than a 3SGTE by ~80-100lbs

aluminium alloy vs. cast iron + all turbo components


This post has been edited by K-ESD: Nov 15, 2006 - 4:50 PM

THREAD REVIVE! Has any 6gc done this swap yet? I know MR2 has been done.

im not aware of anyone doing this swap, I dont see any reason it cant be done fairly easily. If it mates up to the S54 then you have 3 of 4 mounts done. The drivers side mount I can build im sure.

the 2AZ is a good engine. its very boost friendly and dual VVT. I believe it makes about 180-190 HP and fairly torquey so its an improvement from the 2ZZ right off the bat.

If anyone in So, Cal want to accomplish this, Ill make you an awesome deal on the labor, Id like to see what it really makes.

Smaay. You're thinking of the 2AR-FE. That is available in the TC2 and Newer camry's. The 2AR is the motor Gouky put in his MKI. The 2az is a single vvti motor with 162hp and typically dynos around 140+ with mods. It is a turbo friendly motor.

I believe the 2az will bolt onto the s54/e153. However those motors are more expensive than a v6 and make less power. So it's hard to justify that swap. But if your heart wants it. Go for it.

As far as making it CA legal. It's more difficult to do it but possible. You will need to convert to drive by wire. Have the evap pressure sensor at the tank I believe. You have to get 2 catalytic converters. The manifold one you typically have to purchase separate from the engine plus you need to purchase the downstream one. SO you're looking at about $1000+ just in converters. There are more things but still... Possible. V6 is cheaper and simpler and more power!

This post has been edited by Celicaguy13: Oct 14, 2014 - 11:18 AM

^^^^ Ah yes, you are correct good sir

for all of you, not (not, not, not) in california. Once the 2grs drop price. it will be very fun to do..... Sorry california, unless you get a manual ecu from factory..... which only lotus have....

2AZ-FE is not a performance motor, it's built for torque.
The bore/stroke is under square, the head and intake and designed with long runners. It has an impressive torque curve but it was not designed to produce horsepower.

Definitely would make your 6gc quite peppy. Not as broad a torque curve as the 1mz, but definitely more low end than the other 4 cylinder engine choices. VVT-i somewhat improves the top end performance given how seriously compromised the engine is, but the torque starts to drop off over 4000 rpm. The 3S(beams, GTE) motor's torque curves don't drop off till well past 6000rpm.
Idle to 4000 is where the 2az will really shine.

The 1/2AR would be a more interesting swap, or the ZR series even have some neat engines. None are built for performance but with the relative light weight of the 6GC and spacious engine bay to work with they could be fun.

2AZ is cheap now, compared to when this thread was made. It's also plentiful.

I read "2AZ will not make power" but personally I've been in 2AZ turbo Scion tC's with 12-14psi of boost from a Big 16g pushing 320whp, running on a piggyback ECU as well lol.

No way in hell a 3SGTE or a 5SFE will produce that kind of power with that turbo at that boost level. It's simply a newer, better designed (than the 5SFE and probably better than the 3SGTE old gens) and more readily available engine.

However nobody has ever tried swapping it into a 6GC, which is a pity. If I had the funds I would go ahead and try fitting the engine and transmission for a tC in there. The mounts for the transmission (front and rear) look similar to what the s54 mounts look like, so I'm willing to bet it could be put in with some modification.

Just don't get one with the head bolts that strip. That's why most are in the yards for cheap....

Fixing a few threads and then studding the block shouldn't be much of an inconvenience.

No, as long as the rest of the engine wasn't damaged when the bolts failed and the car was junked. Usually the first sign of trouble sheeple see with their Camry is it's over heating due to having no coolant in the engine anymore. Warped head, cracked head, warped block, warped bores, etc. Engine needs to be checked out well before you bother fixing the threads and installing studs and then bolting a turbo on it so it's not wasted time and money.