I think we all GET that boosting on a high compression engine is infact UNWISE. But the number one thing we all do when boosting an engine to high output is FORGED PISTONS. Now if we stick a pair of 9.0:1 compression CPs or Wiseco's in there would a 3s-ge(T) handle a ct20 if we slap a 3s-gte exhaust manifold and works?

edofus i bet a 3sge unbuilt would max out somewhere well short of 250hp before major pinging on pump gas would require such retardation of timing that u wouldnt be able to capture any more power or otherwise cause damage to the engine.

on the other hand a 3sgte will handle 300hp+ atw all day long, we know it because we do it. 3sgte is hell detuned from factory, its good for some serious power right out of the box.

the first instance is a waste of a turbo, most turbos are at their best at 14+psi,,, they like to swing up to about 1bar and thats where they are most efficient for mid sized turbos such as the stock one, and even the one i run. 6psi ? maybe 8psi tops is what you could run on a 3sge+t, and then in that case you may as well get something so tiny that it comes on boost at idle and gives u 6psi till redline... and then u really gotta say... i just spent a fortune on a new turbo setup and all i got was a pathetic little peashooter?

all your google theory stuff is best left at that, we dont need your rocket science when we're talking about an engine that can only handle 8psi tops

if you gonna boost your ride, you may aswell use common sense start with a boosted motor and boost it more, have something nice in your engine bay rather than a pathetic tacked on peashooter turbo.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 5, 2011 - 10:56 AM

All this vvti stuff and high compression stuff and midrange torque talk, I invite you guys to come in a ride in my 1.6 tonne gtfour and tell me i dont have low end torque, I think having owned or driven every variant of a JDM 6th gen celica I'd be in a good position to say Ive got more response, more low end power, more mid range punch, more high end power in my current setup than any other I have ever driven.

So off boost you get NA response right? then on boost your into the power, ... Well if you pick the right turbo like a CT20b or a GT28RS you are never off boost for long and even if you are, boost is only a gear shift away, it's not like NA response is going to make you fast at 1500rpm anyways, so why bother? Why waste 3/4 of the turbo's capability??

Dumb notion imo

The only real advantage of high compression small turbo would be that if setup right, its very fuel efficient

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would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

no one would argue with the two sitting infront of you its more cost effective to start with the 3s-gte, the higher the power you build for though, and the more you spend, the less important it is which one you start with, and in a few cases (such as the gen 2 3s-gte) if your doing a full build then you are better starting with one of the na versions.

also its worth noting that there are people who have done exactly what your saying cant or isnt worth doing, its quite cheap to take an na 3s-ge if thats whats in your car already and using hand-me-down parts from gt-fours such as the manifold/turbo/ecu and some other bits and peices which makes a very cost effective power upgrade if you get the parts cheap enough. It does however require you to know what your talking about.... Ultimately it is not black and white, and the point i was alluding to is that static compression is only one part of a very large puzzle, it is foolish to assume what can and cant be done based solely on that.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 15, 2011 - 10:38 AM

so im possibly about to embark on this journey. i have an AT celica that i got for cheap and im going to use it for part to do a mcpherson swap in the front so i figured instead of buying another engine like i was going to that i could just use this one. are there any other real differences in the 2 that would make me not wana do this? like do the NA engines have oil squirters? i will be do all the work myself, forged internals, head work, the whole shebang. any info would be great.

Nope the NA 3rd gen 3sge doesent have squirters at all.....anywho are you going to swap the beams in, or the 3rd gen 3sge? I thought it was a beams though...anywho to stay on topic Edophus makes a good point. Everyone is assuming that you would keep the stock pistons, therefore limiting yourself to how mush boost you can run in a previously NA engine. Last time checked low-comp 3sgte pistons are easy to come by brand new and actually rather cheap. And if you wanted to, you could use the 3sgte pistons themselves if you had spare ones laying around.

i'm pretty sure na 3s-ge's do have oil squirters, any that i've seen do, i even thought the rev 2 3s-ge did not have them but having been shown some that do i beleive its only the 1st gen 3s-ge that does not have the squirters. It could differ from market to market though so i guess there is no guarentees.

anyway st205wrc you say you have an AT celica? then that would be the 7a-fe engine no?

Well then, i stand corrected on the oil squirters issue. Even looked them up and found the part number . And i dont want to speak for ST205WRC, but im sure he is referring to a jap-spec model.

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yeah i thought the same before but was happy to find they do have them!.

he is possibly refering to an auto trans model just when i saw AT i wondered was it like at202 rather than st202, its monday morning and i'm a bit slow to get going lol.

I think if your opening up the engine and replacing pistons and doing headwork and generally going to that extent it doesnt matter so much which engine you start with its either down to preference or what you happen to have.

yeah my bad its an ST202 A/T with ACIS. its a POS the shift solenoid went out in the trans so im guna junk it after i get what i want. would it be worth while to use the ACIS or just got to a normal side feed intake. from the looks of things i think i found my new forged build wahahaha.

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not really sure about the acis to be honest, i've seen a 400bhp rev 3 3s-ge and it still had the stock intake manifold but whether acis was still being used i'm not sure

Man i wish EAZY was here. he would be able to answer any question about ACIS. If you checked out the MR2 forums pretty much all his post are about the 3sge in some way or manner. If i were using a 3rd gen engine though, i would scrap the stock mani and run a st215 manifold or some sort of custom manifold.

I kept trying to tell everyone about changing the pistons for some reason no one listens to me.


So I think we have established that by change the compression we can run boost on forged pistons and con rods? and that by adding boost we need an aftermarket computer that can handle vvti?

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That seems to be the gist....and of course we were listening to you ^_^
And the aftermarket computer deal would apply if dealing with VVTI or not. I mean you would need something to drive the new injectors (amongst other things)
unless you decided to keep with the stock ones (dont know why you would want to do that?)

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cuz that's all you'd need to make big numbers, and with that comes alot more heat and stress to deal with... well it may not be as simple as i put it, but there is a direct relationship between static compression and the amount of boost you can safely run on pump fuel via the amount of power you wish to put out. I think it's safe to say that a factory 3sgte can safely put out an arseload more power than a factory 3sge

dont see where thats an arguement you can pick nits at really..

The real question isn't Why can't we turbocharge a 3sge, It's Why would we turbocharge a 3sge?

Why wouldn't we just get a GT4 lol

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 18, 2011 - 8:55 PM

Think that both questions have been answered more than once already delusionz....

A:) you might have a 3rd gen 3sge and want to turbo charge it....
B:) you might want a turbocharged beams engine
C:) if you have a blown 3sgte engine and have a spare, why not....

Their isnt any real bad reason NOT to turbocharge a 3sge. Its all up to personal choice with how far you want to do it. On a budget, youd be pressed to get any real results from it. Seriously all this talk about compression ratio and static ratio dosent really even matter. If you were to build a badass turbo 3sge/3sgte you would end up spending just about the same amount of money and the blocks are identical ( found this out because of this thread).

Only true downside, if there ever was one, is if you choose to not swap pistons, do something with your fuel setup, and just slapped on a turbo. Now with that being said, the true question should of been....

How can i turbocharge my Na 3sge using the stock components and what can i expect out of it all.

With this kind of question in mind, i think its smart to consider the obvious things necessary. Such as downpipe, exhaust, manifold fabrication, or if possible the use of a 3sgte manifold/dp combo...Do they even have the same bolt pattern?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 18, 2011 - 10:35 PM

The 2nd Gen 3sgte had TVIS. Also the ACIS manifold doesn't have the restriction in the intake runners like TVIS did even when the butterfly's were fully open.

An example, quite a few people here in NZ who are running a 4e-fte or a 5e-fte in their starlets had improvements with an ACIS manifold from a 5e-fhe

You would need to sort out the oil and water lines aswell, the 3sgte uses 2 extra bolt holes on the top, the 3sge has them but doesn't use them.

well the original questions was what is it about the 3s-ge that means you cant/wont turbo it, is it the compression? the answer to which is no, there is nothing to stop you turboing one, your just dealing with a different set of parameters so you'll get a different outcome, as for why you wouldnt well in most cases its simpler and cheaper to start with the 3s-gte version, and just a handfull of cases where you are better of starting with the na 3s-ge.

As for the compression ratio issue itself as i've tried to point out it will affect the maximum boost but it isnt strictly true its a direct relationship between psi and compression ratio as its a relationship affected by the cam timing, compressor efficiency, how effective your charge cooling is, what rpm's the boost is being made at, the weight of the car the engines in, even the gearing. So the results would be variable depending on a bunch of stuff. The rev 3 3s-ge may have a higher comp ratio of 10.3:1 but thats not directly comparable to the 8.5:1 of the rev 3 3s-gte because the na engines cam timing means your losing some pressure out of the cylinders due to later closing of the exhaust valves etc, hence when you calculate the dynamic compression ratio the picture starts to change somewhat, the actual amount of charge that ends up in the cylinder between the two engines is not comparable. The 2zz with its aggressive cams and 11.5:1 comp ratio is a good example of this, they boost well despite there high comp ratio, even 260bhp from the factory with no internal modifications. lol all that assumes you dont blow the headgasket first, which is entierly probable if you boost a rev 2 3s-ge, before you run into detonation problems.

none of that matters as soon as you open up the engine for forged pistons, i'd be more concerned at that point that i have block with decent wall thickness than which particular version of the engine it is.

think i'd prefer the st215 manifold over the acis intake given the option, and with the tvis heads preference would be not to use them and go for a small port head, but i think either the acis manifold or a st162 side feed manifold would be better than the stock tvis one.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 20, 2011 - 5:42 AM

While were at it ditch the rubbish intake/exhaust manifolds for custom items, gen 3 3sgte head + gen 2 3sgte block, get rid of that pathetic excuse for a turbo that toyota labels "ct26", get the forged pistons , arp studs and gen 3 3sgte oil cooler..

The only reason for doing a 3S-GE+T is wanting a little extra kick out of a pathetic piss poor Celica while on a budget... and then you realise the car needs more and more money on overlooked supporting mods, the project ends up costing a fair chunk of cash, and in the end is still a pathetic FWD Plus Tee and you could have had something meaner for cheaper...

Not that I can talk, The money spent on my GT4 could have got a very mint GT-R Skyline

just boost an altezza

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Just reading through topics this note leads me to only reason Why I could think about turbocharge 3sge (not swap directly 3sgte) is having Altezza black top Beams 3SGE, put inside 2.2 stroker kit and to have unique vvti 2.2 3sgte engine... a lot of money, not sure if worths it but definitely unique enough to have excuse to do it

not to offend any one that has commented on this thread but most of you are all very narrow minded. there are a few reason why you could/would boost a 3SGE. as it has been said multiple times if you are going to build from the ground up it really doesnt matter what you start with, gen3 blocks are all the same. for example i have a ST205 that i want to build an engine for. my plan is fully forged blah blah blah. i have a st202 that i am going to use for a macpherson front end conversion after that its kinds useless. so i am most likely going to pull the engine and use it for my build since i already have it. once you get down to that level of build its not going to matter about stock compression or rod strength its just like taking a gen 3 3sgte and building it.

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What they said
Anywho can the 205 transmission bolt onto the blacktop? Also do they share the same mounts or mount locations.
Also looking at the benefits of the blacktop or redtop 3sge. Maybe having higher volume oil pumps due to the vvti system? Also could the blocks be just as strong as the 4th and 5th gen 3sgtes? Alot of questions but not too many answers...anyone got any ideas?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 21, 2011 - 10:48 PM

Not to try and compare it to Honda's, but isn't vvti just like vtec? I know that people turbo b16's, b20's, h whatevers (you get the point) all the time. Don't you achieve a faster acceleration with the vvti (or vtec) kick? My buddy had a 99 SI, and the vtec kick felt pretty cool. If you had a 3sgte vs a 3sgte with vvti, which would win? I would think that the one with vvti would because it could go higher into the rpm range as well as have a better torque curve. That's just my thought on it though

except, you'd launch at an rpm higher than the vtec engage and never really fall below those revs when racing, technically vtec would lose cuz it has extra weight

While reading up on both systems, ive read that VTEC is much more aggressive than VVTI. To be honest, after driving an altezza and my prelude, the altezza was fair more aggresive with spirited driving when driven under the same conditions as my prelude, yet much more smoother. With the VTEC it was like a KICk...well we all know what its like, but with the VVTI much more smoother.

I understand it that, VVTI dosent "kick in" but instead is a constant change of cam timing as the car is driven.
VTEC on the other hand, allows for the valves to operate in a differnt manner thus creating the KICK and such...

One thing i am wondering though, considering timing, is whether or not it would be wise to just turbocharge the blacktop. I mean, the biggest obstacle would have to be with ECU timing.

Variable Length Intake Manifold (with info regarding ACIS and turbo) Actually the ST162 1st Gen 3S-GE had TVIS, did you mean to write ST215 intake manifold by chance? I guess would be up to personal preference which either intake manifold you use... but maybe not one of the TVIS manifolds



Can't swap a blacktop 3SGE into a ST20# engine bay, due to a lot of reasons and costs. You also cant mix BEAMS blocks/heads with a 3SGE or 3SGTE, due to a different cast

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(I'm going to create a NEW sticky which will have this & more info for easier reference)

as I posted before
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Greddy do a kit for the altezza, with turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler, piping, and comes with an emanage or some sh*t... its a fully bolt on kit, no custom fab work

Does about 250bhp