Soooo back to my original question: Are the aftermarket heads any good?

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The original question sought information about experiences members have had when using a large head rebuilding company. So far, no member has stepped forward to offer a single experience. So, we are still left wondering how good these outfits are at rebuilding heads. And it would be good to know because they seem to offer an inexpensive approach to rebuild a head.


Previous comments have shown that this isn't a "no brainer" type of question. The answer depends on who is asking the question, what their personal goals are when asking (are they biased toward DIY; do they prefer giving he work to a local person, do they prefer to farm the job out and forget about it, etc), and at least one unknown (what experiences have people had.with corporate rebuilders).

Making the decision of what approach to use when you need to fix your head should depend on your expectations of quality, cost, time to complete, as well as the amount of personal effort required. So, break the problem down and ask instead simpler questions, as follows, and perhaps those answers might help make the bigger decision:


A) Which of the following approaches can be expected to provide the >>highest quality>> job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


B) Which of the following approaches is expected to provide the >>least expensive>> job when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., lowest cost)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


C) Which of the following approaches will take the >>least time to complete>> when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., least amount of time your car will be out of service)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.


D) Which of the following approaches can be expected to require the >>least amount of your personal effort>> when rebuilding an "old" head? (i.e., which will lead to the likelihood of the longest additional engine life?)

1) Total DIY?

2) DIY and Local Machine Shop?

3) DIY and a company that rebuilds thousands of heads each year?

4) No DIY; Just drop car off with Dealer to install NEW head.





Me answering the four questions: >>A4, B3, C4, D4>>

Now, do the same exercise again, but drop out item 4:

Me answering the four questions: >>A3, B3, C3, D2>>

Let's take a poll. What would your answers be? Or is this exercise unhelpful?

You can add a poll if you go back and edit the original post.
From my experience you NEVER EVER pick #4 in any category.
I buy lots of high quality parts from Toyota, but once its past a certain age there's not much need for the dealer mechanic. It will be more expensive and you Still can't guarantee its right. : (

From there it really just depends on your skill level. If you have a garage and the tools and know what you're doing there's no reason not to do it yourself.
You're going to need the machine shop to rebuild your head. But if you're an a mature mechanic you could do it but not if its your daily driver and you have to have it done right in < 2 days.
Even when taking it to a shop just search around until you think you've found somebody who knows what they're doing and won't hose you.

OK here is my situation, which may or may not differ from Langing's situation:

1.This is my second car so I have another vehicle to drive if I have to.
2. I have a two car garage and almost all the tools to do the job
3. Know-how: This is the area where I do not have a whole lot of expertise. I have done one similar work on my 1974 Celica long time ago and I had help. So with little encouragement, I think I can do it. take the head off, take it to a reputable shop and have them rebuild it while I work on removing the pistons. the knowlege I lack is keeping it all straight, while putting it back together. Not putting the piston in the wrong cylinder etc.

My original question was whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not. The only reason for asking that question was to eliminate the wait time for the head rebuild and a little bit of saving.

My main goal is to put the car in its original running condition.

Thanks

To me the rebuilt head is just as good as a head that you take to a shop yourself, or for that matter if you buy a used head and take it to the machine shop yourself. But to me you can get a salvage head for $110 and get it cleaned, mangnifluxed, resurfaced tested and whatever for maybe as low as $50. But you will have the local machine shops testimony on the condition of the head.

Whats the shipping on a cylinder head? Do you have to pay the shipping if it is returned?

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We have quite similar situations, actually. My main goal is also to put my car into its original running condition. Here is my situation compared to yours:

#1, Same
#2, Same
#3. Same

"whether aftermarket heads are reliable or not" WAS your original question. If, in reality, the answer were that those aftermarket heads were of equal or better reliability than heads overhauled by a local machine shop, you might purchase one of them, and then you would "eliminate the wait time" while saving a little money. You would, of course have to repack and ship the head you remove back to the rebuilder (but you already paid for that in the original price).

IMHO using a rebuilt head from one of the big head rebuilders SHOULD be cheaper, and more reliable, than using a local machine shop because of economies of scale (by them purchasing wearing parts, cleaning solvents, and polishing materials in bulk), and refinement of process quality controls (having a line of expert rebuilders, people who do nothing but that all day long every day). These economies can only be achieved by a large rebuilder. Thus, this OUGHT to be the wise decision, only we have no one that has yet stepped up to testify that they have used rebuilt heads shipped by whoever, and are still perfectly happy some ten or more years later. But even that is a crap-shoot because it is a sample of only one. Statistically speaking, you need a much larger set of reviewers who have been satisfied before you know for certain. Why don't you contact a rebuilder and ask for testimonials from their customers?

Unless you personally know a local machine shop operator and you have absolute faith in him, because you have worked with him before, or someone you know and trust has, how do figure he will do your job as well as people who focus entirely on rebuilding heads? In today's economy, people who work for themselves cut as many corners as possible to be able to make any money at all. We are victims of the "race to the bottom." Today I find it impossible to find and employ a roofer, painter, auto mechanic, you name it, anyone who will do the work I want done at a level of quality that meets my standards, which are admittedly high but not unreasonable. That is, unless I pay more money than I can afford to give him the luxury of time to perform at that quality level. Even if I do that, it still might be impossible to get them to work "at my quality level".

And, I've a recent experience that fits this perfectly. I just paid a hungry painter a couple of hundred dollars more than he was asking ($800 rather than $600) to top off a few parts of the exterior house painting job I had been doing on my own home (I have a 30 foot ladder but still can't get to certain places). It wasn't a lot of work; I figured day or two. I was hoping that by my word and deed he would understand how badly I wanted him to give me a quality job. Turns out he thought he was doing the job to my standards, but he wasn't, and I could see no 'civil' way to explain the difference to him. I came away from the experience thinking that the problem was that he has an internal calibrated standard for the way he paints, a calibration that has been developing all along, and at the present time he really doesn't know how to paint in any way other than the way he does it ---- meaning a way in which he can make money, for to him, like so many others TIME = MONEY. So, he has only one speed, FAST. A machinist exists under the same economic pressures my painter lives in, so the same forces shape him as well.

In a typical machine shop, do they rebuild heads all day long? Or do they take in whatever machining job that comes in the door that day? If you found one that only did heads, then you might be safe choosing them to do the job on your head. Then you get back the same head that came off your car (a plus?) and you could perhaps watch them do the work to check if they are doing it well (do you know what to look for? I don't!).

Why is buying a rebuilt head any different than buying a rebuilt starter motor or a rebuilt alternator?

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The rebuilders I looked at charged a fixed fee (a few hundred dollars) and out of that money they purchase the return shipping, so all you do is crate the head back up in the container the head you bought came in and paste the prepaid shipping label on it and call Fed Ex, (or whoever).

Sorry, I reread your question. You asked if you have to pay if you return the head? I'm guessing you meant that the head that you received wasn't right for your car, or was damaged, or you wanted to return it for any reason to the rebuilder you bought it from. I would expect you would then have to pay the shipping charges, but you had already paid for shipping charges to send back the head you were removing when you put on the new one. Guess what you end up paying depends on the reason you want to ship it back. If it were non-functional, maybe they pay. I didn't see that situation described in what I read on-line.

This post has been edited by Langing: Jul 1, 2014 - 3:01 PM

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I was thinking that rebuilding a head meant more than just cleaning, resurfacing, and checking for cracks. It's got cam shafts, and all sorts of stuff in there that I know nothing about, but don't the moving parts get examined for wear and replaced if needed. Don't they grind valve seats? Stuff like that?

What exactly do they do when they rebuild a head? Can you point me to some resource I can read, or some video on YouTube?

Three angle valve job; lap the valves in; check the tolerances on the camshafts journals, camshaft lobes, reshim the valves, replace the valve seals, check the valve guides; check the head for cracks and resurface if necessary

Ya i'd say a 'rebuilt head' doesn't mean that they have ground the cams for performance or anything like that.

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Muchas gracias! With that helpful info I can finally relate to what's going on.

You've done this before, right? Did you do most of it by yourself (DIY) or did you farm out the whole job? Or have you done it more than once?

With 16 valves, I would think that work could take a person a while to finish? Would it be true that most anyone mechanically inclined who has the right tools and is reasonably careful could do that job, with the exception of resurfacing, since that's the only task that requires expensive equipment, or do most of those tasks require expensive equipment? And how about cleaning all those parts, wouldn't that be a monster chore?

If an unskilled person, a DIY guy, just had the hots for taking an engine apart to rebuild it all by himself, wanted to get himself a salvage engine from a junkyard, would you try real hard to discourage him? Or would you stay silent and wait for him to fail?

For how many months would he have to reserve the garage to do this?

http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA-CELIC...CELICA-7AFE.htm
here is the link of one re builder. and here is the description of what work is done to the head:

This listing is for a rebuilt Toyota Celica 7AFE cylinder head for the years 1993-1997. For other models see our store listings. This head is completely rebuilt. It has been pressure checked for cracks and resurfaced. Guides and seats have been replaced as needed. New VITON valve stem seals have been installed. All heads are given a three angle valve job. All valves have been vacuum checked to ensure proper sealing.

In terms of how long it will take to rebuild the head, Here is a video link I found that will give you an idea of what has been done. this will give you an idea of how the head is pulled out and how the piston rings are cleaned and replaced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ASGwWtrxE

Music is annoying LOL.

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Ive had a couple heads worked on, had to have a burnt exhaust valve replaced on my old 5s motor. Last head I had apart was for my '82 Yamaha SECA 750, none of the local shops claimed to have the equipment for that small of valves so I lapped the valves and replaced the stem seals myself. Had to buy a special sized valve removal tool.

Without tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, your are limited to-

Removing the valves, replacing the valve stem seals with them out.
Lapping the valves with valve grinding compound.
Using calipers to measure the valves, camshaft lobes and cam journals.
Using plastigauge to measure the clearance inside the cam journals.
Reshimming the valve lifters back into spec.
Checking the straightness of the head.

Grinding the valves and valve seats requires serious machinery, as does replacing the seat or valve guide. But luckly these things are usually only needed on a severely worn head. I would stake money on toyota cylinder heads outliving the block and lower end by several hundred thousand miles as long as the engine is properly maintained. Just make sure the valve shims are in spec, they have something like a 75,000 mile service check interval.

Langing: i spoke to a guy named David from Cylinders Head International. He explained what is done to the head is exactly what he described on their website. he also mentioned that he sells about 70 heads a day from his shop. I asked him if there is additional work requires and he said NOT usually, however, sometimes you do need to adjust the valves if there is a valve chatter.

In Shims under bucket valve system, it is rather difficult to adjust as you would need the exact shim to replace it with. Most sport bikes have that type of valves adjustment.

I think I am going to go with the aftermarket head in the next month or so.

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Thanks for the info. Going with a large rebuilder like that seems to me ought to be our best option, all things considered, and especially if we don't want to (or can't) waste a lot of time learning how to be an engine mechanic. Using a local shop, even a good one, judging from the comments, requires that you are fairly knowledgeable about a variety of things, else you can't validate their work. If that man ships out 70 rebuilt heads every day, that's a good indication that his organization is good at rebuilding heads, so your chances of getting a poorly rebuilt one should be low.

>>>>SpecialEdy>>>> was kind enough to spell out the ginormous amount of sophisticated technical work that is involved in rebuilding a head properly, and no matter how much you choose to take upon yourself, you would still have to use the services of a "trusted" machine shop. I have nothing against machine shops, or the people who own and/or operate them, and in fact believe it important to send work their way whenever you can to help them stay alive. However, when it comes to figuring out the best way to get your engine rebuilt, there is more to it than simply removing and replacing a cylinder head (block, intake, exhaust, etc), and simplifying the process (while achieving a higher probability of getting the job done correctly) seems wise. We need our cars out of service as short a time as possible.

I don't know about you, but each time I attempt something totally new, it takes me anywhere from 2X to 4X the time it should, like if I had been through the process at least once before. That reminds me of the video you posted of the time lapse engine overhaul (with the Christmas music). It made me want to learn how to do that, but scared me as well. There is a whole lot happening in that foreshortened video!

Here's another thought that perhaps you've had yourself. How about getting your car in shape the best and fastest way possible (I can hear your mom's pleasure rising and then falling). . . then, as you have time, search for your Celica's NEXT engine, the one you wished you had in her to begin with, the one that you can imagine would make her whisk through puberty, say from a junkyard or parts place, somewhere you could buy one cheap, and get yourself set up (in your mom's garage? ?) to take your time rebuilding that engine, one it wouldn't matter if you wasted because you would NOT potentially lose much money. If a secret desire to rebuild an engine from scratch was psychologically embedded in your current decision making, you could get it out of your system that way as time and money came available. It's just a thought.

thanks Langing. I just spoke to a mechanic who is a retired Toyota Mechanic. i am taking the car to him next Tuesday and he will check it for me i.e., compression test, leak-down test to see how big a problem I have.

I asked him about the re-manufactured head and he DOES NOT recommend it. He had bad experience in terms of some shops will weld the crack on the head etc. With luck he knows local shops who he trusts for his work to do his machine work for him.

(BTW, I do have my own garage LOL, that is where I spent most of my time anyways)

There you go, the most important thing is to find peoples you can trust.

And I totally agree i'd rather take it to somebody else so I can be sure it's taken care of right the first time. These guys keep trying to convince me I could do it myself, and I'm sure I could ...eventually
I think $500 for a job that pays 8 hours for somebody I trust is not a bad deal at all.
And if I made an oil mess in Mom's garage then SHE'd blow a head gasket.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jul 2, 2014 - 11:11 AM

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I sincerely appreciate your helpfulness in introducing me to this (what is to me a) new world. What you just posted is most helpful; made things snap into place. You also pointed out something I have been ignoring for a long time because of my lack of experience and shallow understanding. I'm talking about the importance of keeping the valve shims in spec. Their service interval is 75,000 miles and I've not paid the least attention to them for the 300,000 miles I've put on her. Maybe if I got those shims adjusted, she might be able to go over 70 without me feeling like she needs rest (seems happy at 60)! That adds a new task to my relatively immediate todo list!

Although I find engine guts intimidating, I've had my 7A-FE valve cover off twice since I bought Betsy, once because of an oil leak at the spark plug tube ends (caused by a service mechanic) and the second was when I changed out her timing belt. So, it is not EXACTLY like I see the engine as a complete black box. I have seen her cam shafts

So, when I read your advice I popped open Vol 1 of my BGB and skimmed over the >>VALVE CLEARANCE INSPECTION AND ADJUSTMENT procedure>>. It has some terminology that I will have to puzzle but the only thing that caught my eye as being a possible problem for me is their use of two SSTs on the exhaust side used to take out, measure, and replace the adjusting shims (SST A and SST B. . . page EG-22), needed because the exhault cam shaft is not removed in the procedure. Since my experience with Toyota tells me you cannot get your hands on their special service tools, I'm wondering if there are suitable alternative tools? I've got thickness gauge, micrometer, etc., and I can be careful when removing the intake cam shaft, so this job doesn't look all that intimidating to me. Seems I'm slowly being forced to crawl deeper and deeper into her internal organs!


BTW: I googled images of the Yamaha SECA 750. If your 82 is like those images, you had/have a very nice looking motorcycle!

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It is good to know that you have clean, protected space in which you can do this kind of work.

That negative recommendation from an expert is helpful and certainly timely. Makes my logical reasoning look flawed.

But makes me wonder where the flaw is?

When you are interacting with him try to pump him for information like: whether his bad experience(s) came while he was an active Toyota Mechanic or afterwards; how many times did he experience such problems versus how many times he installed rebuilt heads; could that/those bad experience(s) have been isolated events or did they occur with all re-manufacturers; were there general instructions given to Toyota Mechanics NOT to use head re-manufacturers; why did he think a re-manufacturer would try to get away with doing something so obviously unethical as that (clearly, they would lose a head from the "circulation" that keeps their business going, but getting another from a junkyard ought to be cheap and easy, AND the cost of getting a bad reputation is always hanging over them if they operated this way); was "welding a crack on a head" the only problem he has seen coming from them; did they generally do a superior job of rebuilding heads, otherwise? I would be looking for other reasons to be biased against re-manufacturers, since I still have hope.

Like, what might cause a supposed expert Toyota Mechanic to favor a local machine shop over re-builders, other than what he reported to you. I know, for example, that Toyota dealers charge an enormous amount of money for their OEM Toyota parts, and do the same in charging for their Mechanic's time. They consequently seem to sell parts that are, indeed, OEM (i.e. high) quality. They don't need call-backs for any reason because they simply cannot afford to potentially be seen as providing inferior service. If I was a RETIRED Toyota Mechanic and was presented with the situation you and I are in with aging Celica engines, and I had limited funds, why would I insist on only using OEM quality parts in my personal car, unless I was still thinking like a Toyota Mechanic? I can imagine that while he was working directly for Toyota, being a well trained mechanic, he probably didn't have to think twice about charging his customers extra to cover the costs of using a local machine shop with which he developed a nice working relationship over time, and that machine shop would have good reason to do their absolute best work when a Toyota job was coming in the door. Would the same shop treat you the same? Would you know a machine shop that did Toyota's work?

I wonder if the guy who told you he shipped 70 heads per day would tell you how many heads he shipped to car dealer shops versus independent shops, and DIY people?

And remember, a sample of one isn't statistically meaningful. We need to find a number of experts who report similar examples before we can know we should write these guys off. Maybe I will visit some of the other Toyota websites looking for comments about head rebuilders and report back as to what I find.

All that said, what your Toyota Mechanic said is not good on its face!

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Exactly, TRUST is the most important issue we are dealing with. These days, it isn't easy to develop!


But once you have. . . life is good!

To me that is the most important reason to not buy something like that from someplace far enough away to have to ship it.
I talk about going to "school" and "Living at moms", but I'm really not that young at all. And I've worked many jobs for many different companies and it doesn't matter What business they are in, They make money because they F3kk people everyday.
And you would think logically that you could make even More money if you would Do What Is Right, but they don't give a f3ck, they just keep on f3cking people. They figure most people are so afraid of getting f3cked some more that once they realize they've been f3cked they won't even come back to complain or try to get their money back.
And even if a few people do it won't matter because they've made so much money off of everybody else.

So it is good to search around to find somebody who knows what they are talking about and ask them who They trust.

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That is a really sad comment! Nonetheless, I agree with the truth of it. That's where things stand today. Maybe we can join together to find a way to make things better? Like sharing the names of people and companies we, as individuals, have come to trust; call it a TRUSTED LIST! So many people want things done right; this website is a testament to that, and there are so few who are spoiling it for the rest of us. Put them on the DO NOT TRUST LIST; drive them out of business, and out of our lives!

You can remove the exhaust camshaft on the 5s, possibly the 7a, without much effort. Its the intake camshaft which requires a lot of disassembly. The only important things are making sure you install the camshaft bearing caps in the correct order (they are numbered), and that you reinstall the camshaft with the timing marks aligned properly.

The exhaust valves are typically the faster wearing valves on any engine, they are heated by the exhaust while open which can cause wear, and they shed the heat through the valve seat when closed. The intake valves are cooled by the valve seats too, but also cooled by the cool air from the intake flowing through them. 100 or less degree air vs 1000+ degree air makes a big difference in the valve's life.

Thanks to all for their input. I think the strong consensus from reading this thread is the best way to go, which may be a bit expensive is to go with the rebuilding your existing head from a local shop you have found (hopefully reputable)
So I am now gathering parts and other info. I started another thread in which I am asking what brand of parts to go with since I have read many different reviews on this board.
Special_Edy: Thank you for your input. I got the factory Service Manual for 1996 Celica and I will be using that to dismantle the engine. For now the plan is to not remove the entire engine from the car. However, if I found out more work is required then I will do that.

Thanks to all

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I'm hoping you will open a thread to photo-document the tear down, rework, and rebuilding of your cylinder head, so we can all learn from your experiences?

I am planning on it. I was going to start last weekend but other priorities interfered and this weekend looks shot too! I would like to start and finish before it gets too cold.