I picked off a steering knuckle from a junkyard Celica, removed the ball joint and wheel bearing, and cleaned it with a wire wheel to the point where it seems rust and yuck free. Now it is almost all bare metal and I have two questions:

1) What is the best/easiest way to remove the remaining rust? (I don't have a sand blaster.)

2) What is a good/long-lasting way to protect the bare metal from rusting again?

To show what I am talking about I include a photo of the newly cleaned SN next to my Celica's SN (the one with with bent ears). The junkyard SN is the lighter of the two, the golden rust colored one; it came from a red 1995 Celica and is going on a white 1994 Celica:



Thanks to anyone who takes time to help me by discussing these questions.

Dip in phosphorus?.. Powdercoating is best. Go to eastwood. I use chassis paint in my rears

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In what product would I find the phosphorus? I thought that was a dangerous chemical element because of its high reactivity; remember HS chemistry class being shown how rapidly it burned when exposed to oxygen. Is "dipping" in phosphorus a DIY job?

I'm going to have to do some research (tomorrow) on powdercoating; have zero experience with it. Have heard people talking about it but know nothing.

Eastwood is the name of an auto paint company, right? And I'm also guessing the "chassis paint" is an Eastwood product?

I saw your photos. The black is fine with me and I'm assuming that "chassis paint" must be a long lasting coating. Do local auto stores carry Eastwood products? Do you spray paint and if so how do you do it? I've been using cans.

Very much appreciate your taking time to address my questions.

Coca~Cola=carbonic acid and phosphoric acid. Vinegar is acetic acid and works on rust as well, but is a little harsher than the cola.

Best thing to do, buy some "bilt hamber Deox c" this is a very effective rust remover, it will remove all remaining traces of rust, here's the hub carrier I soaked in Deox c for a few days, no other work was done on it at this stage,, no wire brushing, nothing



I also tried phosphoric acid but you have to wash it off which seems a bit odd as it reintroduces rust, if you want to go really over board you can get it zinc plated.

After removing the rust I agree with the Eastwood comment. It's a very good paint, they do something called chassis Black extreme in either a spray can (very expensive) or tin to use a brush with, I tried both, both work well. Leave it to dry for at least a week to reach maximum toughness before putting it onto the car (if you can leave it that long) remember to go for the extreme version, they do a chassis black that's not as tough.

You can also buy something called Epoxy mastic 121 from a company called rust busters, it's a two pack paint, extremely tough, used to paint the legs of oil rigs apparently! The finish isn't as smooth as the Eastwood paint but it's as hard as nails.

Powder coating I am not so tempted by, I did some tests years ago and as soon as the powder coating gets chipped it allowed water to get between the powder coat and the metal. It depends greatly on the quality of the powder coater, some are very good and produce a very tough finish that's nearly impossible to chip, some don't. So it's a bit of hit and miss.

Another option is something called POR15, they do a two pack anti rust paint that's pretty good, the finish is excellent, no matter how badly you apply it, it dries with a glass smooth high gloss finish, but it's not UV resistant so needs a top coat, they also do something called a hardnose paint, again a two pack paint, I used this on my fuel tank, the finish is OK but you can belt it with a hammer and it doesn't chip, very strong, very expensive.

The last option is just to move further south.

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You've been quite thorough in your explanation, and I especially thank you for that. Much appreciated. Seems you've done a lot of homework on how to protect the parts you restore and I admire the thought and experimentation you have put into it.

Your photo shows a steering knuckle (hub carrier) that you simply dumped into a chemical bath, without any other preparation, and the result is amazing. In my case, I have already used a strong wire wheel in an angle grinder to spin off the debris. That did a fast and pretty reasonable job and the metal didn't seem any the worse for the violence. As you can see, the amount of rust remaining is way less than before I started. Knowing that, would you still recommend a bath in Deox C, meaning, is the quality of the resulting metal surface finish worth the cost of the chemical?

Also, just to check my thinking, when it is finally clean I guess that's the time to reinstall the wheel bearing and ball joint, i.e., prior to painting because installation of the bearing, etc, would be rough on the paint.

I am concerned about the quality of the work I am doing, but at the same time know that nothing is permanent, and after all, it's a steering knuckle, a part that is rarely seen, so do believe that a coating designed for marine applications is indeed "going overboard."

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The changes in climate during my lifetime have already made North Carolina feel like Alabama, or upper Florida before. There are many days of the year with high relative humidity. And the number of days we pass through dew point seems to be lengthening; I dare not leave any expensive metallic tools in my shed over winter. I live far enough south to be almost free of road salt in the winter; nice snow-storms are a thing of the past. I really don't see the benefit of moving still farther south to take on even more heat and humidity. If you had suggested "out west," maybe in the desert where there isn't any wetness at all, ok.

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Using the Deox c is up to you, it will remove all traces of rust, it comes as a powder and you mix it into warm water for the amount you need, it's not that expensive but maybe not worth the fuss if you have already taken most of the rust off....but it depends how thorough you want to be, as you say it's a Hub and will be pounded by gravel and stones from the road.

I have painted mine before putting the bearing back in which I might live to regret, putting it back in before paint might be a worthy exercise to protect the paint from damage, the hub won't really get in the way of applying the paint.

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Humidity is a bitch. Still, I've never had a problem with rust on cars that have lived in Alabama their entire lives. Move out to Arizona, I hear the dry heat is good for you.

eastwood.

cheaper in home depot




so many products

in my picture you see the chassis black extreme, chip resistant and brake fluid resistant. powdercoating is better, i dont have tools, nor do i want to pay a lot...

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So many products is right. Spent my morning visiting places, looking for the Deox-C and Eastwood paints. At Home Depot the paint fellow told me they did not carry Eastwood, nor did they have Deox-C, but did have other auto spray paints, most by RUSTOLEUM, and a rust eliminator made by KRUD CUTTER. Didn't buy anything. Went to Advance Auto. They didn't carry Eastwood paints or Deox-C.

While I was asking about rust removers at Advance Auto, I stumbled into a chatty fellow who said that NAVAL JELLY (now owned by LOCTITE) was just the thing I needed. Claimed he had been a mechanic in the air force for a long time and worked on various high performance Jets, including a lot of rust removal, knew that NAVAL JELLY was a very good product, so long as you kept the reaction out of the reach of oxygen by putting the coated parts in a squeezed down zip-lock or equivalent.

Then he went on and identified the more than a dozen classic cars he has bought and restored (including three Porches), but never could bring himself to sell any of them! Offered me the use of his sand blaster whenever I needed! Turns out he lives within a mile of me and spends many hours down as the LKQ junkyard! Maybe we are birds of a feather?. . . maybe an American Eagle and a sparrow. . .

My wife outside in the Tacoma was waiting on me so I was trying to cut the conversation short (we did have frozen foods in the back), yet I was excited by talking with this guy, so as I was saying good bye to him, I just left the store with the bottle of LOCTITE NAVAL JELLY in my hand, and didn't realize I hadn't paid for it till we were almost home and noticed a police car driving right behind me.

Just phoned that branch of Advance Auto and turned myself in!

BTW: Would that "Prep & Etch" phosphoric soln be the best thing for my case, or is the Naval Jelly good enough just before painting? Went and read all the info on the HD website, and it seems like it would do the job, and I have some other, smaller parts that could use what's left of it when I finish.

This post has been edited by Langing: Jun 15, 2014 - 1:10 PM

Well. as long as you didn't take $50+ worth of Naval Jelly it's only a minor offence. I've heard good things about it Naval Jelly before, so hopefully it does the job for you.

This post has been edited by Box: Jun 15, 2014 - 3:02 PM

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Actually, on >>>>njccmd2002>>>>s advice, I read up on the "Phosphoric Prep and Etch" product that is available at my local Home Depot (including the few on-line reviews) and decided to take the Naval Jelly back and buy this other product instead (yeah, I know how that sounds). When the gentleman was describing how Naval Jelly works, he explained how careful you have to be to NOT let it become dry while doing its work, and how messy things can get if you do. Since I have never used it before, I'm automatically at a disadvantage; by Murphy's Law, it would perform at its worst for me.

The description and reviews for this other product seem to say that it does its thing very well. Hopefully, it will do the job for me.

Here is a question for you, if you know off the top of your head. How do I transition from bathing the part in the solution to putting on the paint? Is there an intermediate step? I'm assuming there are instructions on the product itself, but if you happen to know something from your experience, I would certainly like to hear it.

According to the instructions you rinse or wipe it with a damp cloth to remove any residue and then paint within 48 hours. Could wipe with denatured alcohol, then do your paint of choice for bare metals.

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TX. . . that is very helpful. Hope I can return the favor some day.

Rust converting primer is available at most autoparts stores, follow with any cheap spraypaint or the same brand as the primer for best results. Getting the rust off isnt a concern, its getting the paint to adhere. As long as the paint is intact, water wont get to the metal and the rust will cease to grow.

You could just get lazy, coat the whole thing in rubberized undercoating, and call it a day. Unless you plan on constantly climbing under your car and wiping down the suspension by hand it will inevitably get greasy and grimy. Any paint out of a rattlecan cant be expected to last forever either, its just a matter of months or years before it oxidizes or succumbs to some kind of chemical breakdown.

Older cars were actually manufactured with a rust inhibiting system, slow oil leaks. The grimy aftermath eventually coats everything under the car and creates a water/rust proof barrier

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Jun 16, 2014 - 1:32 AM

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I'm using your suggestion, the Phosphoric Acid Prep and Etch from Home Depot. Brushed it on a couple hours ago and will probably wipe it off later this afternoon. When I went back to see your photo of your paint job it looks like you painted all metal surfaces, including all flats where the metal of the steering knuckle meets mounting brackets. I had been thinking of masking those mating surfaces so they didn't get painted. There are a couple of reasons for thinking this way. One is making sure that parts are able to fit together without any restriction. Another is electrical conduction pathways. If there is paint, it might not permit a metal to metal connection, so no conduction path, say back to the battery as ground, or supposing lightening strikes. When I painted my caliper mounting bracket I painted those surfaces, then when I discovered that the rotor was dragging on the bracket I wished I had not painted the mounting surfaces and ground them back clean. Which is right? I need to paint within 48 hours.

if lighting strikes, it wont strike the hub, it will strike the metal of the car, or ground, in which case your tires are rubber.

when i fitted my hubs, you have to remember that the struts are painted, too. in any case, the more exposed metal you have the rust potential. my strut bolts to hub were so affected with rust, it was crazy, any ways i always use



it will guarantee me that i wont fight with rust again

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Your intention is to prevent accumulation of rust and provide ease of nut removal post tightening? PD Blaster and broken bolt removal is then frequently unnecessary? I'm beginning to trust the information you provide, so am planning on purchasing this product.

I've tried to find information about the product (looks to me like it's made by Permatex) and found two Anti-Seize products from Permatex, a regular lube anti-seize and your NICKEL anti-seize. The Nickel product says it is for use when elimination of copper is important. They both seem to be highly recommended for exhaust applications where temperature is very high and road-salt is likely. Why did you settle on the Nickle version?

My reading took me to Wikipedia where I found a new concept for me (that makes perfect sense) called "fretting," which happens at the mating surfaces of metals under load. And a new word "asperities" which are all of the 'high spots" are all the metal that actually touches when two metal parts are joined together, and they initially bear the load. Just the slightest movement causes them to quickly wear down and release particles of grit that can do bad things to a joint, forming krud that resembles rust but can eventually cause metal fatigue. It's interesting if you didn't already know. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fretting.

>>BTW: As for lightening>>, there are some myths that abound. One is that it doesn't ever strike twice in the same place. Photos of the Empire State building in thunderstorms frequently show bolts of lightening striking its very top. That's why there is a heavy metal column running uninterrupted from the top down to way deep into the ground in that building, to carry those electric surges without harming the building's inhabitants.

It is true that you are safer in your car than just standing on the same spot during a thunderstorm. But the actual reason isn't commonly understood. You are protected by what is known as the >>Faraday Cage>> (a metallic construction named for Michael Faraday), a metallic surround formed by the shape of the metal that comprises your car. For all-metal vehicles, it is that metal that diverts electric current to run along the metal surfaces and then to ground, leaving the enclosed space inside the vehidle, including you, untouched. Your rubber tires are, as you think, insulators. However, that isn't what protects you.

When lightening forms it begins as an intense aggregation of electric charge up in a cloud. When the cloud moves across the land, an image (of opposite charge) travels along in the ground (earth) beneath the cloud. Just as a lightening strike is about to occur, electric streamers begin to head from the cloud to the ground, but also from the ground to the cloud. In fact there are many at first and it is only when two of them of opposite charge meat that an electrical circuit between cloud and ground closes and a huge amount of electric current rushes down and crosses a gigantic air gap. It's an incredible force of nature when you consider how large an air gap the electricity must jump. The spark of your spark plugs are the same thing, but the gap is minuscule in comparison.

People used to attach a metallic strap on the lower back of their vehicles, so it would constantly be making contact between the metal of the car and the road surface as the car drove along, hoping to act like lightening arresters that you have probably seen on barns, with something metallic on the top of the barn, at it highest point, attached to a heavy gauge wire running down the side of the barn and buried deep in the ground.

The problem with that solution was that it helped a lightening strike get its start from the ground side, as it effectively places the ground's charge at the top of the vehicle. That means that cars with such metallic straps were MORE LIKELY to suffer a lightening strike than LESS. The Faraday Cage construction still played its role (normally keeping passengers safe) but it doesn't always work perfectly.

At the same time, worrying about paint trapped between the mating surfaces of metal joints, given the notion of "fretting" mentioned above now seems possibly silly. Nonetheless, you do want all of the metal parts of your vehicle to be in tight contact with one another so the entire metal assembly forms a single pathway for electricity to run through (think of the battery positive and ground just about anywhere you touch), and the more metal the safer you will be, otherwise the Faraday Cage might not protect you. If a lightening bolt were to strike dead on at the very top of your car, it normally would not pass straight down to the ground. Instead, it most likely would take the easiest way to get to ground (i.e., that path of least resistance), which is found by following the metal pathways and then jumping the much shortened gap presented by your tires. Rubber tires are good and rubber tires are bad all at the same time. I don't know for certain if it is true, but I suspect it is true that there have been events where people were killed by lightening striking cars. And hey, fiberglass isn't metal!!!

I know, but I'm learning. It's so exciting!

I never understood how people can believe that lightning can jump miles from the ground to a cloud, but somehow 3 inches of rubber will stop it. Wont it just jump the 6 inch gap from your undercarriage to the ground, since it just jumped 63,360 inches to the cloud (supposing one mile). I dont think its because the car is a faraday cage, I think that has to do with electromagnetic radiation. Faraday cages are used to shield electronic devices from electromagnetic interference or even an EMP. If your car was a faraday cage your cellphone would be unable to recieve a signal inside it for example. The skin of the car is 1000s of times more conductive than its occupants or the air space inside, so naturally the electricity takes the path of least resistance. If it can jump through air, your car is a cakewalk. They say airplanes are struck by lightning extremely often, but no damage occurs due to the airplane's conductive skin.

The ground straps you see on cars are for static electricity. They are often required on airport vehicles. I think it is due to the static charge which builds on planes from them traveling through the air at high speeds. Your fuel tank filler hose is actually constructed of a specialized type of rubber and often grounded, the simple act of gas pouring through when you fill the tank would generate enough static charge to ignite the gasoline if it was regular rubber.

You dont need antisieze, probably the #1 time its recommended is different alloys of metal threading together, like a steel spark plug into an aluminum head. You can use just about any lubricant other than water as an anti seize. I prefer some used oil from my last oil change.

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Jun 20, 2014 - 11:05 PM

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I think you have the idea of a Faraday Cage down pretty well. I remember laboratory rooms set up that way so they could study instruments without any possible interference from EMR, and yes, EMP. Some were made of copper mesh wire and parts of solid copper, even the doors were special because they had to be an integral conductor tied into the rest of the conducting metal surround once you closed yourself inside. You are right, their intent was to protect the inner environment from as many frequencies of electromagnetic radiation as needed. The higher the frequencies you wanted to keep out, the finer the wire mesh, because they have shorter wavelengths. Take that to the limit and you have a solid metal sphere.

You can use your iPhone in your car because your car isn't exactly the same degree of a Faraday Cage; think of it like a "partial" or "incomplete" Faraday Cage maybe, or a cage with a very coarse wire mesh (the laboratory versions used fine wire mesh, finer than the screens on your windows, so the openings were very small), where there are ports, or openings (the front, side, and rear windows, at the least) that permit some electromagnetic waves to get in or get out, but whatever EM radiation that impinges on the metal surfaces does, indeed, travel along its skin to ground, it there was a grounding strap from the undercarriage.

When it comes to a lightening bolt, the phenomenon is not so much electromagnetic radiation as it is the actual movement of electric charge (which produces electromagnetic radiation, of course). In this case the electrons moving through the air just love it when they come in contact with metal, because metals are excellent conductors of electrons (the path of least resistance). And remember that the initiation phase of a lightening strike first produces tons of soon to be aborted streamers (only one actual conductive pathway ever completely forms), little jets of emitted electrons jumping off the ground into the air all over the place.

Imagine your car way out on the salt flats of Utah, with nothing for miles around that is any higher than the top of your car. Should a thunderstorm rumble through, and pass directly overhead, you would likely be struck with lightening because one of those initial streamers would leap from ground (earth) to the metal of your car (the air gap is insignificant to lightening because of the gigantic voltage differences) and very rapidly travel through the metals of your car up to its topmost part, and the number of electrons up on top would just as rapidly build up until it had enough opposite charge to be able to attract the electrons in the thunder cloud to be directed straight to it. Then ZAP! Another metaphor -- a golfer on an flat fairway holding his club in the air!

But you wouldn't necessarily notice anything electrically shocking, except the brilliant flash and the unbelievably loud thunderclap that would immediately follow since the lightning (ELECTRIC CURRENT) struck directly on your car, so close that the light and sound produced by the ionization of the air come at you senses almost simultaneously! All that electric charge is being discharged in an instant. The reason I called your car a Faraday Cage was that it is a relatively large percentage of a complete enclosure by metal, which thus protects the insides from this kind of an electrical discharge (CURRENT) being passed directly through the inner space, especially the (conductive) people inside, from having the deadly lightning bolt travel straight through their bodies in its desperate attempt to get to ground. Instead, since your vehicle has a lot of metal in its makeup, the current travels along the metal pathway.

And, once the conductive pathway has established the actual path (from among the many that initially tried to form) the electricity will continue to flow through the actual path (ionized air and metal combined) until the charge in the cloud has been totally discharged. That's why you can actually see a lightening bolt; it's a dramatic flow of electric charge all passing through the same basic path.

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I understand what you are saying but didn't know what anti-seize actually was, so looked it up. Prior to that I had become confused because I had seen numerous YouTube DIY auto repair videos about how to do this or that, things that required lubrication, and there were times I had noticed something anomalous. At times people would wipe on anti-seize when I was expecting them to be wiping on a "lubricant," or vice-versa. Why I've come across this is because my recent efforts over the past couple of months have focused on brakes and wheel bearings.

So, your recommendation is to use any old lubricant rather than waste (my interpretation) anti-seize -- "use old oil from oil change" -- except where you have fasteners of one metal being in contact with a different metal. Didn't mean to make that sound like criticism or sound negative.

It seems there are a number of ways that metals in contact can wear, even fail, and I don't know all that much about materials science. So, I looked around and came across terms like fretting, galling, seizing, and others that represent ways that metals in contact can result in bad side effects (wear). Then I looked for information on anti-seize compounds. I can't understand all that I found, but perhaps you can make some sense of it if I past it here for you to read:

A) One solution to the issue of fretting is to use a metal based anti-seize lubricant between the mating parts. Composed of assorted mixtures of aluminum, copper, graphite and nickel powders in a grease base, such lubrication allows repeated assembly and dis-assembly without wear and the elimination of fretting corrosion during use. (Wikipedia)

B) Loctite® brand anti-seize compounds protect metal parts from rust, corrosion, galling, and seizing. They ease assembly and disassembly of slip-fit, press-fit, and threaded joints and reduce friction and wear on critical operating equipment. Formulated for severe industrial environments, these products protect against high temperatures, heavy loads, chemicals, pounding, and vibrating.

Information from Henkel Corp at

http://www.henkelna.com/lubricants-and-anti-seizes-6140.htm

C) LOCTITE® BEARING MOUNT STICK – HIGH TEMPERATURE

A revolutionary method to bond non-threaded, cylindrical metal assemblies, this unique wax-like stick works just like Loctite® Bearing Mount liquids to secure parts, seal joints and prevent corrosion. Replaces clamp rings, set screws and snap rings.

Typical Applications: Bushings, bearings, oil seals, ring gear bolts, differential lock pins, axle bearings, water and power steering pump pullies.
Information from the Henkel Corp at

http://www.henkelna.com/us/content_data/18...Mounts_pg17.pdf


>>>>My concerns boil down to just a few:>>>>

If I should want to apply a treatment over bare metal to prevent rust and applied grease (lubricant), wouldn't that collect whatever (dirt, dust, rust, etc.) particles that happened to land on it? Would anti-seize do the same? Would anti-seize be any better at preventing rust?

If I have two bare metal mating surfaces that bolt together, what should I smear onto the surfaces before bolting them together? What if the metals are different?

If I want to torque bolts to spec and am looking to the future date when I might have to take the bold out again, what is the best application to put on the threads so I can get the out easily next time?

When I just yesterday hand-tool pressed a front wheel bearing should I have used anti-seize before pressing it in? How about the oil seals and dust deflector?

Addressing your concerns,

1. Paint is the best barrier for exposed metal, grease or anti seize would be susceptible to washing away. Like I said in an earlier post, the fact that older vehicles tend to accumulate lots of grime and oil on them acts as a natural rust inhibitor (oh my 64 chevy had at least an inch of grime when I first got it).

2. Paint would still be a better barrier but keep in mind that both paint and anti seize will alter the thickness of the part. Probably not enough to matter but your two metal parts now have hundredths or thousandths of an inch of paint or w/e throwing them out of alignment. In this case rust would actually cause the two surfaces to bond and adhere to each other.

3. Honestly it depends on the bolt. Some are intended to be torqued completely dry (head bolts), some require oil on the threads (head bolts on different motors), some require antiseize (steel into aluminum), and some are best with a compound like LocTite. It will affect the torque of the bolt, and sometimes the bolt will loosen on its own rather than seize. Id suggest Blue LocTite if you are in doubt, it will dry and prevent the bolt from turning, but it will keep it from seizing.

4. The press fit parts have extremely tight tolerances, anti seize is kind of chunky so I wouldnt recommend it. Some light oil can be used though the help press the parts in.

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Thanks for the helpful advice, >>Special_Edy>>. I'll be putting it to work immediately as I am reassembling my right front wheel/hub today. I do have one last question.

I'm fixing the passenger side motor mount with nuts I got from dealer. Two studs pointing down are got at from below. Do you know off the top of your head whether these need LocTite?

Im sure factory they didnt but I had them fall out on me before. Blue loctite wont hurt, red will make them difficult to get apart in the future.

red oxide is the best way to protect bare metal as a primer then throw a 2k paint over it once dry,500ml should be enough,hope this helps