You Guy's know all about weight and power ratio's and stuff like that !

so is a stock GT-4 really any more powerful than stock GT ?

A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

i'm probable so wrong but i think the GT has got more power on the road..

So many guy's out here think the GT-4 four is such a quick car, and are supprised when (with my bad driving and such),there's not much in a head to head with a SS III.

I raced one of the lights the other week with no real conclusion due to trafffic and road conditions and care of our cars !!!!!

on paper in a straight drag, what are the facts, who will be quickest ??

anyone know ??

i think that when the race is on and the turbo starts to spin... the chances of winning are very different...because turbo's will kick faster and produce more pressure for power and speed... but also the difference in HP... mabe a GT will pick up in low end or mabe not at all but for sure i think it wont catch up at high end.. well thats what i think....have'nt seen a race like that yet...

i knew a guy who owned a GT4 and his brother owns a SSIII. They raced few times, and the output of this was that of the line GT4 is way faster, but after 200 meter SSIII starts to catch on.. in 1/4 mile boths cars end up almost side by side. Both there stock, and SSIII was automatic, so if it wasnt auto, i think it maybe won, or atleast lost by half car..

This was tested, and both cars there in best condition.

-popstar+Dec 30, 2004 - 2:20 AM

I wont jump on you, because you're obviously new to this.

1. First things first. Since this site is composed of mostly Americans, a "GT" as you put it is a 2.2L 135 crank HP FWD car. If you are referring to a SSIII or any others, please use that term.

2. The SSIII with the Beams engine wasn't available til late, like 1998 if I remember right, whereas the GT4 started its prime back in 94. And even if you got the Beams (you lucky dogs you) you got just shy of 200 HP and roughly 150 in torque. Otherwise, it was 177HP and 142 in torque.

3. The GT4 has just over 250 HP adn 225 in torque. The car is also AWD. Amazing.

4. Despite what all the FWD racers will tell you, a AWD is better. Its better in everything. Racing, drag, drifting, turning, stopping, starting, EVERYTHING. The only thing some might bark at now is the oh-so-great "hey, what about the rolling start." Well, those people can kiss my ass because they dont know how a car launches otherwise they wouldn't bring that up.

Now you can say, hey mister, you dont know what your talking about, my FWD is fast. Well I've got a great depth in FWD, RWD, and AWD. In fact, I've owned a FWD and AWD Eclipse. Now, I say, thats a great example. Theres a car with the same engine, same body, and the only difference between the two is the drivetrain. HANDS DOWN, I'd pick the AWD. Launching a well built car at near redline and not getting anything except a slight chirp of the tires is the most beautiful sound one's ears can admire.

Now for my in-depth anyalsis. You experienced something my friend. Something I'll call VVTi. Why you thought the Beams was faster was the sudden burst of engine once you hit VVT. Thus at a highway speed, stomping on the gas gave the engine enough rpms to use the VVTi power and WAM you were off. Now granting, I love the Beams and love the SSIII. Great car, and oh boy, I'd love for our crappy 7A and 5S's to disappear from the US shores, but NOTHING will top the GT4 except a different car.

The end

-Ti

(also when I refer to you, I'm referring to the reader until the final paragraph where I talk about your drive in a SSIII)

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Dec 30, 2004 - 12:08 PM

>> Read what he wrote >>



>>

This post has been edited by doGGy: Dec 30, 2004 - 4:05 AM

-doGGy+Dec 30, 2004 - 2:47 AM

No prob, I'm just referring to the title

Really, I thought the red top beams in the SSIII only has 197? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and sorry.

-Ti

No Ti, you are right... i was wrong >> ... red top 197 and black top 210...

I did a little research >> but beams did came with LSD...


-turboinduction+Dec 30, 2004 - 1:49 AM

eh

who drives stock?

a gt4 is a turbo car, and simple mods add big power to turbo cars.

it wouldnt even have to cost money, unbolt the exhaust at the downpipe on the GT4 and it will easily be faster than any NA fwd celica with similar mods(unbolted exhaust, lol)

I think its probibly a close race but with good drivers the gt-4 could probibly take it, I think that off the line the gt-4 with the awd, even though it takes more to push them all, then just two you'll be making up for that intraction and the extra 50hp.

you gata remember stock for stock the ssIII has no chance, the gt-4 govener is higher then the ssIII so even if the ssiii gets ahead its not gana hold it in the long run. (of cource the top spead means nothing on a short drag, but when there is no definate start/finish it means everything.

well being that i have never driven eith a 6gc-GT-4 or a 6gc-(SS-III)... luck SOB that have....i really cant say which one will win in a race.. but the frist post makes perfect sence to me....weight does play a part .... and i think doggy is the only one here that has show any real prof to back up the frist post.... (i take his word on what ever he says on these boards) ....

Thanks guy's

it's still not answered the question on paper, but yeah it was pritty much as doGGy said, but we cooled it at 165km/h.... the road were wet from melted snow and not in good repair as most are over here...

2 turboinduction.
i don't know if it was a red top or black i never spoke with the driver of the SS III but it was a late model 'beams' imported, so i think it was the 210 bhp...
I was driving 'my' 1986 GT-Four (with winter tires)>>

As for what cars are called in the US and how there called in the rest of the world, sorry,
but for some of us out here just driving celica and not in the know .... maybe someone can make a break down of the different cars and engins through the US, Japan and the export market 'so we're all singing of the same song sheet' in furture. this could be something very usefull to a lot people looking on this site !!!

An lastly i might be new to this site but i've had 4 different celica in four different generations over the last 18 years.......... and i still love my first twin cam 20lt lift back 2nd gen !!!!

This post has been edited by popstar: Dec 30, 2004 - 6:09 AM

Celicas came ONLY with red top beams engine, black top can be found in Caldina's (Toyota Avensis in Europe) in japan, euro Avensis never had anything like this, mostly they came as ECO versions only...

-popstar+Dec 30, 2004 - 4:00 AM

Cheers Doggy

where do you get all this info from !!!!!!!

whatever it was a fun little race, and i'll wait for the summer to prove what my babe will really do >>

I can think of one big disadvantage to awd taht may have affected your race. Given that teh wheels will not spin under normal conditions, something has to take the pain. Launching under full power the only choice one has is dividing the damage between the clutch and the rest of the drivetrain. So many people would not be inclined to do an ail out launch in their awd car. I know I wouldn't.

-Jehuty+Dec 30, 2004 - 10:47 AM

Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

I just dont see how so many people are bais about an AWD without owning one. An AWD is the biggest beast ever on the streets. The reason the Celica went AWD was because the FWD model couldn't handle the power of the 3SGTE. Simple as that.

-Ti

I wouldn't worry about launching an AWD car... if you can't do... you shouldn't be trying to.
Overall, the BEAMS is an overrated engine IMO. It was rated at 200ish hp only to compete with the Integra Type-R at the time. It's probably closer to 180-190 hp. VVT-i also is not what some Toyota enthusiasts are describing it as. You don't "feel" VVT-i kick in... it doesn't create any serious advantage aside from a better mid-ranged torque band. It doesn't add power. VVT-i works like a computer controlled camgear on the in take cam that retards and advances the intake cam timing depending on rpm, load, etc... The BEAMS blacktop had VVT-i on both intake and exhaust, so it is a much better engine, and I'm sure the head also underwent a bunch of changes. Another thing you gotta consider is weight. The FWD SSIII is gonna be about 500 pounds lighter, which will make it a threat. It's really a driver's race between these two cars, and it's really a matter of opinion which is better than the other.
And for those who like to guess about AWD... unless you've driven one... don't try to guess. They are perhaps some of the most dangerous sports cars (dangerous as in competition-wise... not safety) on the road and can handle most drivetrain set-ups in any situation.

when u go side by side with magic at 150kph and he hits the gas and u wonder y u are stoping u understand what gt4 is all about....
TORQUE

-recycle+Dec 30, 2004 - 7:09 PM


speaking from experience >>?

-DamDirtyApes+Dec 30, 2004 - 10:27 PM

always

Guys this is wrong,you are comparing 2 cars that are coming from 2 different categories.
Of course the the bhp cannoct be covered by the extra weight,if you were talking about a Honda Integra GSR comparing to a Honda Prelude H22 then you have a point but comparing the GT4 with SS3 (GOD HELP ME >> ) then its wrong.
You cant imagine how many Celicas i am driving DAILY (SS1,SS2,SS3 and GT4) and of course we are talking about 2 completly DIFFERENT cars.
I will not say more on this beacuse the thought its not correct.

Friendly

Magic

Anyone have the weight specs for these models we're referring to?

you were driving your 86 gt-4 with winter tires? the 86 gt 4 wasnt rated at 250 horse was it? wasnt it more like 225 or less? in fact the 86 is the fourth gen so a celica with a beams motor and your 86 gt4 are going to be very similar in power because the power rating on the older gt4's were lower. if it were a 94-99 gt-4 it would have pulled a lot harder. am i right or am i completely off the mark here?

gt-fours debued in 87 i thought, and all the 4th gens make 185 PS (approx 183 hp)

-turboinduction+Dec 30, 2004 - 12:12 PM

The clutch, the tranny, 3 diffs and 4 shafts. Im talking about an all out launch here. The parts are strong, but not indestructable, and even if they don't break immediatly, there is some accelerated wear associated with this kind of treatment. I wouldn't do it to my car! And I think many feel the same.

From my experience, the really fast launches from awd cars are produced from hi-rpm clutch dumps. And Ive heard plenty of stories about transmissions getting ruined under these conditions, although Ive never had the pleasure of seeing it in person. =) Even new evo owners are busting halfshafts here and there.

Somewhere between a baby start and a full on dump you can still get a good start, but it takes skill, and still isn't as fierce as just abusing the drivetrain.

-erics1one+Dec 30, 2004 - 11:53 PM
Estimates are pretty easy to make. Consider the ST185 Alltrac weighed about 3200-3400 pounds and the 5th gen GTS weighing about 2700-2800... a weight estimate can be made. The SSIII should weigh no more than a USDM GT (~2600) so it'll be logical to assume the ST205 should weigh in the 3000-3200 pound neighborhood... maybe a little bit lighter.

So weight reduction on a GT, with a beefed up 3SGTE, and you're out in front?

-erics1one+Dec 31, 2004 - 4:44 AM
No... real-world situations are different.

>> >> >> >> >> hi magic >> >> NO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ST205 is significantly *lighter* than a ST185.

And on a real road, I'm sorry to say that the SS-III wouldn't see which way it went.

From a rolling second gear pull a 2ZZ powered 7th Gen is close in a straight line. Good power and low weight and transmission losses.

Again, chuck in some corners and you can't argue with AWD poise and turbo shove.

Sorry guy's

tipo >> big time >> >> it's a 1996 model 205 >>

sorry about that, check the photos on site .....