Hey dark im ALL THE WAY BEHIND YA MAN!! Some people forget that making vehicles as they are now were once thought IMPOSSIBLE! years ago people thought we couldnt get a man on the moon, and some dont know it happened! DO THA DAYUM THING! (and being im in charlotte, too, ive GOTTA see this!!!)

Uhh, you keep saying your inspiration is from the top secret supra, which stuffed the 3sgte in the engine bay.. but the 3sgte easily fits into the supra's engine bay cus it's SMALLER than the 2jz engine. You keep saying how they fit, well. Cool. Too bad it doesn't matter at all since you're trying to do this in a much smaller celica engine bay. You can fit a ton of crap in a supra bay that you can't fit in a celica.

So, step one, stop drawing inspiration from a supra setup.

This post has been edited by shid: Mar 15, 2005 - 12:33 PM

-shid+Mar 15, 2005 - 1:32 PM

Have you seen the TS Supra, the 3S sits far enough back in the engine bay to consider it a Mid-Engine. Any engine that sits between the Front and Rear suspension assembly is a Mid-Engine.
I don't have a 3S to measure but I can try to find a Supra. There are 3 in the East Charlotte area and I don't know the owners or see them often. Also I base the Celica off the Supra due to the measurements of the two cars are within inches of each other. the biggest difference is that the Celica is an AWD style chassis so the weight of the car car is more balanced on all four wheels than the rears and the driver area is set further forward reducing the engine bay by around 1' 6" compared to the Supra, but look at the TS and you'll see that there is a radiator thats facing the ground.

This post has been edited by darksecret: Mar 15, 2005 - 12:52 PM

The only problem I believe will be that the Celica was designed with a forward slope on the hood so the engine had to lay back in the bay. Hood clearance might prove to be an issue. Im suprised that after thinking of the drivetrain issues that the hood could be a real problem.

Edit: That still wont stop me from trying though. Everyone remember there is a method to my madness.

This post has been edited by darksecret: Mar 15, 2005 - 1:00 PM

-playr158+Mar 15, 2005 - 12:57 PM
Heh... I don't claim to be anything player... unlike you. I can just tell from the way people post and address their questions whether or not they are capable. I ask basic questions which help determine their capability. I'm not here to put anyone down or anything like that, but I am here to approach tuning from a realistic standpoint... again... unlike you who simply repeats any and every idea ever... don't challenge me boy...
-darksecret+
So you're saying you have no toyota experience? Not the answer I was looking for, but it's good to know you're not 15 or 16... Talk is cheap... remember that. As for the TS supra, mid engine, blah blah... FYI, being mid engine doesn't mean the engine has to sit between the front and rear suspension. I can say for sure, MR2's don't, in fact, most transversely mounted engines sit either right on, or a little bit in either direction from the suspension towers. It's always like this to increase front grip. The reason a car is called mid engine, is because the engine is literally in the middle of the car. The old bugs are called rear engine, cause they have no compartment behind the engine, while the MR2 and NSX have a little trunk behind the engine... hence, mid engine. The only reason the TS Supra has a 3SGTE sitting all the way to the firewall, is because of weight balance... other wise wouldn't Mazda be calling the RX7/8 "midengines"?

Anyway, to "help" you on your way, the 3SGTE can fit longitudinally in the Celica bay, but you will have to address the steering rack, which will be blocking the tranny, the exhaust downpipe, and the engine. This reason alone, you cannot mount the 3SGTE really far back there, and you'll need to do a significant chop of the firewall. This is the largest problem... even greater than custom fitting a rear-end. Good luck... but I have a feeling I'll still be 100%... prove me wrong.

Kwanza Toyota experience or not cars are not as complex as people like to think. Most people get scared of doing a project like this but I live for this. Some people couldn't tell you how to build or fix a computer but I do it daily. I spend my time either working on computers or cars and now it's time to do something that is fully possible. Like I said I have considered a lot of problems that could arise but when the first Chevelle I helped my uncle with s*** the bottom end of his 400 small block because he was showing off and changed his nitrous jets we didn't give up, the car went through 3 engines before he finally went for a blown 427. My point is no matter how long or what it takes this car will be a RWD Celica and it is very possible

This post has been edited by darksecret: Mar 15, 2005 - 1:59 PM

-Kwanza26+Mar 15, 2005 - 2:39 AM

Come on man, don't be hatin. There's no harm in talking about it. It's all in good fun you know. If someone eventually really does it, that would be awsome. But it's still neat to talk about the theoritical "how to."

I don't want everyone to give Kwanza a hard time I like the fact he's bringing up questions like those, it gives me something to consider when overcoming this. Im researching this stuff now and when I get my data together I will start looking for parts. It's better to blue print an engine before you actually get the parts. I want questions that are going to make me think, I don't want people who heard from a friends cousins friend that the motor mounts from the 3S will not fit because his psychic told him it wouldn't. Im not mad at Kwanza for this and I don't have a reason he's giving reasonable questions and comments other than the no experience with Toyotas, i've had this car for about 3-4 months or something like that, my brother had this car for 2 years and his friend got it new so I now a little about it. Let's say I know more now than I did 3-4 months ago. Im actually serious about this conversion and that is why I have this much info, but as Kwanza said I do need to consider the steering rack as with other items. Kwanza you also shouldn't bash someones ability to work on a car, a year ago I wouldn't trust my girlfriend to change her air filter, but she is getting better. I do believe that if you don't know what you are talking about not to give advice on something, so then you ask someone who knows and learn.

This post has been edited by darksecret: Mar 15, 2005 - 2:26 PM

Also Kwanza on the Mid-Engine thing http://www.topsecretjpn.com/gt300.shtml
Check were the strut towers are on the supra and where the gears are on the 3S.
http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/10/acuransx05_engine.jpg
I can find a better pics of this but it will work for now
http://www.autoweb.com/content/research/vi...es_id_int/38371
heres another

This post has been edited by darksecret: Mar 15, 2005 - 2:45 PM

-darksecret+Mar 15, 2005 - 5:51 PM


Dude, you don't get it do you? I don't give a rats ass about the TS Supra, because it has NOTHING to do with you attempting to put a RWD drivetrain on a celica. So I don't see why on earth you keep mentioning how your project is possible because of the TS Supra, they don't have anything to do with one another. a 3sgte powered supra isn't proof that you could jam the same thing into a much smaller celica.

sounds fun, if you need any moral support, I'm about an hour away lol. I am not much with engine work but I can cheer you on..

-Rob

i say stop with the flaming ... at least till and if he fails... other wise sean this goes for you to if you dont have anything nice to say ... dont say anything at all... and the reason, i believe, he is refering to the ts 3s swap is for the amount of room that is in the engine bay... he gave measurements for how much smaller the celica engine bay is it kinda to give you an idea on how much space he has to work with... without cuting the firewall up... am i right?

-DMC

Dude, you don't get it do you? I don't give a rats ass about the TS Supra, because it has NOTHING to do with you attempting to put a RWD drivetrain on a celica. So I don't see why on earth you keep mentioning how your project is possible because of the TS Supra, they don't have anything to do with one another. a 3sgte powered supra isn't proof that you could jam the same thing into a much smaller celica.
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You haven't read this thread yet have you? The TS Supra was the inspiration for the idea. I don't have a Supra, my car doesn't have RWD yet. If you take a Supra and a Celica and flip them over then you will see the they are a little similar such as they both have tunnels for the driveshaft and axles and without the gas tank on the Celica there's room for a differential. The Supra has a larger slope to acommidate the Getrag. Not to insult your intelligence but have you been under a RWD car?

As I said before if anyone has a reason why this would not work such as suspension issues, etc. then I want to hear them. If someone wants to say it wont work because my car is not a Supra and the engine bay is to small then don't post. This is a technical thread and I know the engine is a tight fit so unless someone can give me measurements on the 3S pully to output and top to bottom so I can compare measurements then don't say anything about the 3S not fitting. If it will not give me a good reason why and some figures. I don't get my information from opinions but if a group can give me some fairly accurate numbers then it's ok. The measrements do not have to be exact but if the numbers are close cool. This isn't engine building anyone that has a 3S doesn't need to measure with a dial caliper. The car will not sieze up if the motor is sitting 3 inches from the radiator. Shid the only thing I can find that even relates to your post is hood clearance. Also the whole thing behind the TS Supra is that it proves the 3S can be mated to the Getrag 6, which is one of the best transmissions on the planet. If a Richmond or Tremac which cost more could handle the power that the Getrag can then I would look into them.

Im done for today, but tomorrow i'll try to post most of the ST Chassis dimensions.

just a question if your running your axle down that tunnel where your exhaust is now where are you going to put your exhaust?

of coarse we all know you are going to cut the gas tank to fit your stuff

bracing for the back but that goes along with all the custom work back there

is it doable yeah but is it worth the money? or you can say

you can just as easy buy a 90 all track or older celica that is already RWD

So what are you going to be doing with this car? show , daily driver, track/drift?

More than likely he'll go with a fuel cell. It's the smartest and better idea. He won't have to worry about cutting issue's. Correct Darksecret?

All i have to say is that you better drift that f#$ker if you make it work...a drifting celica would be the hottest thing next to the olsen twins pre drug abuse days >>

yea i'm really jealous cause when i get most the work i'm doing now done and get the money my ST is goin RWD too great that your doin this so it will be documented b4 i get to it haha or atleast i hope to get to it

"you can just as easy buy a 90 all track or older celica that is already RWD"

^^DUUR all trac isn't RWD its AWD lol
but thats not his point he wants UNIQUE/DIFFERENT/STAND OUT

sock it to em

I would like to see this happen, don't let the haters bring you down.

I would think that the supra is wider in the rear, wouldnt you need a custom differential ? I thought I read that you were gonna have wishbone in the rear. If so, maybe you should look into a 205 rear suspension set up.

Good luck
DEF

-spunky393+Mar 15, 2005 - 7:32 PM

I know I said i'll be back tomorrow but I can't help myself, yes a fuel cell or the tank from a GT-Four is required (don't hold me to the GT-Four tank though). The ST204 tank sits in the area for the rear end. Fuel Cells are actually a really good option anyways due to the cost being so low on them. The only thing that will need to be cut is an area for the lines to run through the floorboard and possibly a bottom housing for the cell.

-defgeph+Mar 15, 2005 - 9:29 PM

It's possible to use that set up as long as the rear end has the clearance. If I use the ST205 rear it can clear some measurment problems but I haven't checked rear end options yet. I haven't got the measurements for the Supra axle housing yet but it shouldn'tbe much larger than the ST205 and the TRD diff. for the Supra has already proven to be very capable.

Alright I got off work and went straight to my garage lifted my car and checked the most important underside measurements, if everyone with a 6th Gen takes a measuring tape and check these same areas you will come close to these results, these might be an inch off but thats because I did this with all the parts still in the car, when I do strip it down I will measure in mm to be more accurate.

Engine Bay:

Top to Bottom Front: 21"
Top to Bottom Rear: 29" (I checked on the passenger side about 8" from the centerline)
Width: 36" (This is from the smallest points I can find)
Depth: 34" (This is from the radiator, not support to the firewall)
Driveshaft Tunnel Height: 7" (If the shift cable shield is removed there is a smooth area where I believe to be the mount area for the center diff.)
Driveshaft Tunnel Width: 6"
Driveshaft Tunnel Length: 64" (This goes from the firewall to the rear end housing area, the transmission and the rear end will take some of this area)
Rear End Width: 58" (From the backs of each rotor)
Rear End Height: 12" (This is probably a couple of inches off due to the gas tank)


If any one is wondering how I got the height measurements I used a level and went from the lowest chassis point on the car. On my car the actual lowest point is the cat.

I know the 3S is a different motor the the 5S but I checked it and for the people thinking that the 3S wont fit the bay then they are wrong. I can turn a 5S and still have 5"-6" of clearance on either side at the shortest point. I didn't mention anywhere that I probably won't keep A/C. Around here it's not that important.

-nik+Mar 15, 2005 - 7:02 PM

Where does the exhaust run for the '90 All-Trac it has an "axle" running down the tunnel. Sorry about saying that, but the exhaust will have to be custom to let the driveshft run down the tunnel. Exhaust is expensive but an easy fix. The exhaust might be a low set and could possibly scrape but its not very hard to add skid plates to keep the car from bottoming out on the exhaust. People with bags do it a lot and I think it looks stupid but to save my $1000 exhaust any cheap insurance will help.

So far, everyone has a pretty mundane opinion. You are approaching this from a logical standpoint, but I still must say, you gotta do more research regarding the differences between a FF chassis and an FR chassis. It's not a matter of "possibly" fitting the engine... it's a matter of getting it to work. For one, FF cars are not designed for a longitudinal set-up, so the firewall, steering, front frame/crossmembers/reinforcement, will either be in the way, or be completely useless. You just gotta work around it. You still haven't addressed the problems I mentioned. As for the rear suspension, there will be minor issues, but all shouldn't be too big. If you get an ST165/185/205 rear-end, it should be fine... but there will still be a fair amount of custom fabrication to get things to work. There are differences between the trunkpans of the FF celica and the AWD celica.

This is my last response here. To close, the only reason you're not getting pwned by me, is because you are looking at this from a more practical position... I really could care less what the dreamers out there wanna think, but from my standpoint, even I wouldn't think to chop up a car like this, and I build import performanc cars for a living. Not that it's not possible, but just not practical. Think of it this way... Honda tuning is the BIGGEST thing in the import scene in the United states... but how often to you read of or see radical RWD conversions? Out of the countless number of Honda tuners... only a handful have ever been done. You're standing on a stage all by yourself... so any opinion here, mine included, is really not worth your ears if you're really truely serious. Good luck... and again... prove me wrong...

-Kwanza26+Mar 16, 2005 - 1:32 AM

Thanks for the input Kwanza. I know the differences between RWD and FWD chassis set-ups and under the Celica there will be the front crossmemeber, the rear crossmember, the steering rack, and the rear suspension that will have to be addressed, I was under the thing for 3 hours last night just looking for things that would be in the way. This isn't the first time someone has made a FWD into a RWD and this isn't the first for a Celica. It's possible and not as bad of a task as everyone thinks. It will require a lot of custom work, but im not building a space ship here. the chassis can stay around 97% intact, unlike say a Honda Civic which has been through the conversion and those guys had to run tunnel work all through the car before they can even address the issues i'm at. If I had a FWD car that has always been a FWD car and nothing else then this wouldn't be the smartest thing to do. I strongly believe that Toyota destroyed the Celica when they made it FWD, it was ment to be RWD or AWD and since Toyota was smart enough to make the GT-Four they made this task much easier. Also I don't build import performance cars for a living, I am a PC Technician, but I have enough people on my side that have built dirt track cars, stock cars, drag cars, drag bikes, Im friends with Gary Hargett (the man the got Dale Earnhart Sr. and Jr. racing) so I got the mechanics to help, I just would like to get help from the people that own, drive, and live for this car. As you can tell Kwanza obviously i'm no slouch when it comes to cars, import or domestic, so I highly believe this project is possible. Looks like you'll have to find out.

hi i just want to wish u luck and a few questions,

Would it be hard to go awd? and do just want RWD?
Also would it be easier to make a custom driveshaft?
Or use a olfer celicas RWD setup?

Sry if this questions or stupuid or already answerd

Engines these days pratically swap themselves.
Step 1: Remove 5s/7a
Step 2: Just toss 2jz in there. Turn up side down for that cool "angled exhuast" look.
Step 3" Pour a few quarts of oil on engine.
Step 4: Close hood.

Give the celica about a week so the 2JZ can get use to being in there. That wasn't so hard, now was it?

that was more useless than this post

I say good luck, and hopefully you achieve this, and if not post regardless, because someone in the future will try this and will learn from the experiences on websites like this.