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Def's Dyno Runs - 6G Celicas Forums

Topic #36538 101 posts Started by Defgeph
presure2
#31
just for comparisons sake, heres an overlay of jeffs best run VS a bone stock usdm 95mr2T
i think jeff has a slight advantage... wink.gif
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Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
Defgeph
#32
I said whoa! When I first saw that run file, the difference is like night and day.

I will return one day.
lagos
#33
now look at the mr2s "tuning". dont you think there is something wrong with that? i cant understand how toyota could tune a car off the scale ritch and sell it like that. there has to be some type of issue going on. that car looks like it has no factory tuning at all.

15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
presure2
#34
actually, art, thats pretty typical of what you see outta a usdm 3sgte.
that specific dyno chart is one that is used all over mr2oc, and was given to me by ken blake, as refrence for my runs.
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
presure2
#35
heres a copy past from KO racings website, its a street brawler VS stock setup, stock is the red graph, you can see its virtually the same as the one i posted.
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#36
what im tring to figure out, is why is it off the chart ritch? whats the problem thats going on here? is it the afm flapper door? is it from an upgraded fuel pump? could the factory ecu tuning be that horrible? i cant imagine the toyota engineers tuning the motor on a bench dyno and making it that crazy ritch. if anything they would want to lean it out so that they would sell more cars by being able to post a better mpg number. it almost seems like there is a common problem with all the cars, that toyota didnt intend to happen.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 29, 2006 - 12:35 AM
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
Silver94CelicaOwner
#37
Yea, the A/F on the MR2 is wacky. Maybe Toyota just wanted to be way over-safe on the motor, but thats just crazy rich.

And Jeff, thats a beautiful dyno run. That thing really pulls now, my personal a$$ dyno agrees with those numbers as well. biggrin.gif
3rd gen ST205 3SGTE - Alive and boosting.
Defgeph
#38
Thanks Corey, anytime you wanna chill gimmie a call.
I will return one day.
Silver94CelicaOwner
#39
Anytime. I really want to see what the thing is like in the day, I think i've only ever riden in the RC at night. We're stealth like that.

I'm going to see if the weather is looking alright for tommorrow, I'll call you.
3rd gen ST205 3SGTE - Alive and boosting.
presure2
#40
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QUOTE(lagos @ Apr 28, 2006 - 11:06 PM) [snapback]427743[/snapback]
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what im tring to figure out, is why is it off the chart ritch? whats the problem thats going on here? is it the afm flapper door? is it from an upgraded fuel pump? could the factory ecu tuning be that horrible? i cant imagine the toyota engineers tuning the motor on a bench dyno and making it that crazy ritch. if anything they would want to lean it out so that they would sell more cars by being able to post a better mpg number. it almost seems like there is a common problem with all the cars, that toyota didnt intend to happen.

there IS no problem, art.
heres ANOTHER....this time from celicatech...we all know the stock ecu is stupid rich from the factory...why are you denying it now?

mods at the time:

2.5" exhaust w/ gutted cat
3" DIY intake
tyfoon motorsports BOV on tmic
11psi
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Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#41
>
QUOTE
> there IS no problem, art.
heres ANOTHER....this time from celicatech...we all know the stock ecu is stupid rich from the factory...why are you denying it now?



im not denying anything, read my posts again. im trying to understand WHY its that ritch. based on those dyno sheets, the 3sgte pretty much has no tuning at all. everything is just set to full bast, 100% duty cycle. it looks like a 5yr old kid tuned it. its kind of hard to belive toyota would intend to tune the car like that.


jeffs car on the other hand, looks like what you would expect a factory tuned motor to look like on a dyno. not too ritch, not to lean. just right.
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
presure2
#42
art, one thing we need to look at is that when we look at these dynos, is the fact that we're only seeing one small slice of the ecu map, WOT only.
i would imagine that toyota set the maps so rich in the WOT part as a saftey measure, to protect the engine from us dumb americans..lol
i would think that on a load bearing dyno like the dyno dynamics ones, at diffrent load points we'd see huge diffrences in way the maps are programed as far as efficency, and a/f raitos would reflect that i would think.
IMO there are 2 things that makes jeffs run look so much better as far as A/F ratio is concerned.
one is the JDM RC ECU, which IMO just has an even more agressive tune than the normal JDM ecu, and a MUCH more agressive one than the USDM.
and, the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal, there are quite a few guys on mr2oc that have runs @ 15psi+ with richer a/f's then what jeff has.
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
jgreening
#43
The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

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QUOTE(presure2 @ Apr 30, 2006 - 11:57 AM) [snapback]428190[/snapback]
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the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal


If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.
QUOTE(lagos @ Jul 10, 2006 - 1:55 PM) [snapback]454118[/snapback]i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.
presure2
#44
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QUOTE(jgreening @ Apr 30, 2006 - 1:04 PM) [snapback]428193[/snapback]
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The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

>
QUOTE(presure2 @ Apr 30, 2006 - 11:57 AM) [snapback]428190[/snapback]
>
the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal


If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#45
finally, instead of giving me a hard time, we are talking about the topic i was trying to bring up !

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

the other thing we know is that the AFM is a different part number and is bigger. why did toyota do this? does the afm have a better resolution? or is it just bigger so that it can flow more air?


15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
jgreening
#46
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QUOTE(presure2 @ Apr 30, 2006 - 12:08 PM) [snapback]428196[/snapback]
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QUOTE(jgreening @ Apr 30, 2006 - 1:04 PM) [snapback]428193[/snapback]
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The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

>
QUOTE(presure2 @ Apr 30, 2006 - 11:57 AM) [snapback]428190[/snapback]
>
the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal


If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.


True, but all else being equal (i.e. I don't know the intricacies of the tuning of the Toyota ECUs) the a/f ratios should be similar if you have enough injector. The ECU will only send an amount of fuel required for the given airflow. I would suspect that for any given 3s on the AFM and stock ECU and fuel system, the a/f at WOT, if different, would be richer than off-WOT due to the limits of the AFM and programming the ECU for reliability.
QUOTE(lagos @ Jul 10, 2006 - 1:55 PM) [snapback]454118[/snapback]i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.
jgreening
#47
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QUOTE(lagos @ Apr 30, 2006 - 12:19 PM) [snapback]428201[/snapback]
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now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME


ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k biggrin.gif

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".
QUOTE(lagos @ Jul 10, 2006 - 1:55 PM) [snapback]454118[/snapback]i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.
lagos
#48
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QUOTE(jgreening @ Apr 30, 2006 - 1:28 PM) [snapback]428203[/snapback]
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QUOTE(lagos @ Apr 30, 2006 - 12:19 PM) [snapback]428201[/snapback]
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now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME


ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k biggrin.gif

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".



BINGO!!!!!! yes, from what i remember it was a stock fpr with an upgraded rail .

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 30, 2006 - 12:40 PM
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
presure2
#49
>
QUOTE
>jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#50
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QUOTE(presure2 @ May 1, 2006 - 9:02 AM) [snapback]428510[/snapback]
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QUOTE
>jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.



its possible that upgrading to a bigger fuel rail (like the ats) can fix that type of problem.
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
jgreening
#51
The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.
QUOTE(lagos @ Jul 10, 2006 - 1:55 PM) [snapback]454118[/snapback]i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.
lagos
#52
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QUOTE(jgreening @ May 1, 2006 - 12:20 PM) [snapback]428580[/snapback]
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The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.



yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 1, 2006 - 11:53 AM
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
presure2
#53
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 1, 2006 - 12:53 PM) [snapback]428592[/snapback]
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QUOTE(jgreening @ May 1, 2006 - 12:20 PM) [snapback]428580[/snapback]
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The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.



yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO! wink.gif
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#54
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QUOTE(presure2 @ May 1, 2006 - 1:52 PM) [snapback]428609[/snapback]
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 1, 2006 - 12:53 PM) [snapback]428592[/snapback]
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QUOTE(jgreening @ May 1, 2006 - 12:20 PM) [snapback]428580[/snapback]
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The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.



yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO! wink.gif



funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
presure2
#55
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 1, 2006 - 2:14 PM) [snapback]428618[/snapback]
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QUOTE(presure2 @ May 1, 2006 - 1:52 PM) [snapback]428609[/snapback]
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 1, 2006 - 12:53 PM) [snapback]428592[/snapback]
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QUOTE(jgreening @ May 1, 2006 - 12:20 PM) [snapback]428580[/snapback]
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The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.



yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO! wink.gif



funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!

awesome! be sure to bring a floppy so you can get the runfiles!
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
lagos
#56
so i guess i was wrong about the upgraded fuel pump/ fuel rail issue. the upgraded pumps on a stock rail and fpr dosnt seem to cause the car to run too ritch. the crazy ritch issue that you see with the 3sgte dynos seems to be a problem on usdm ecu's.
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
zipstrips
#57
im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)
lagos
#58
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QUOTE(zipstrips @ May 3, 2006 - 11:19 PM) [snapback]429815[/snapback]
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im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)



its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

This post has been edited by lagos: May 3, 2006 - 11:47 PM
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
Defgeph
#59
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 4, 2006 - 12:45 AM) [snapback]429863[/snapback]
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QUOTE(zipstrips @ May 3, 2006 - 11:19 PM) [snapback]429815[/snapback]
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im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)



its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?



Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.
I will return one day.
lagos
#60
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QUOTE(defgeph @ May 4, 2006 - 12:49 AM) [snapback]429869[/snapback]
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QUOTE(lagos @ May 4, 2006 - 12:45 AM) [snapback]429863[/snapback]
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QUOTE(zipstrips @ May 3, 2006 - 11:19 PM) [snapback]429815[/snapback]
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im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)



its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?



Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.



do you have a link to any info that says this? based on our dynos, our tuning and power looks to be the same.
15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
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