For a while i was considering buying myself a new toy, Turbosmart E-Boost 2, an EBC with a variety of features, one of them being the capability to map boost against time, rpm or GEAR. Now, I have noticed that breaking the traction on street tires is likely to occur not only on a hard launch from a dead stop, but also at WOT in 1st and 2nd gear short time after going over 10psi. Since this unit can control boost depending on gear i guess we could use it to stay within limits of traction in those gears! yes? no? suggestions? comments?

Since im still on internal WG and my actuator is on 13-14 psi, the EBC itself wouldn't help... Is there a way to lower WG actuaction pressure?? That is without welding the flapper shut and going external.

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 12:13 AM

The AVCR has that feature also. You have to teach the computer what gear is what. I am thinking about doing that as soon as I get more familiar with the controller though because setting it up to prevent initial over/under boost is kinda complicated.

i cant wait for this topic to be more developed this is something i was toying with posting but never got around to it, it seems like it could optimize your boost for launches and get the swapped guys times down by a bunch..

i know jeff ran a 13.9 at 12 psi cause 1st/2nd gear traction at 15 psi was giving him slower times

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What turbo are you running? The stock ST185 wastegate is set around 7psi and the ST205 wastegate is around 9-10psi... The extra boost then comes from the TVSV bleeding some boost from the wastegate actuator.

-Charlie

Its a good idea. It is a topic that I have thought alot about. Here is a list of ways to address traction issues:

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

I think you should do #1 before #2 or #3 because it is allows you to harness more power. The same might be said for #4 but its really uncharted territory for the 6gc.

its all about the tires. running less boost might give you more grip, but will also make less power. the best thing to do is to do is to get some slicks when you go to the track.

as far as gear based boost control, all your really need is any ebc. the greddy typ-s i have has low and high boost settings. you can change the low boost to whatever you want in 1st gear, and then press the button to high boost when you are ready to go all out. they even sell a remote switch for your steering wheel so that you can press the button while driving.

for daily driving or street fun, all you need is a good pair of tires. im running kumho asx, and while they are not the best tire in the world, they seem to do a good job griping on a dry road. with 225-45-17s that i have, you can feel the car starting to want to break loose, but still keeping traction most of the time.

the last thing to remember is that its still a fwd car. you cant lauch at 5k and floor it in 1st gear like you can with an awd car.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 22, 2006 - 10:41 PM

As noted above, a wide pair of stickies would do the job. Traction bars are something I havent thought about. I could try making a pair for my car.

could you guys explain what a traction bar is?

Edit : Bolts up to the front.

so youd have to remove them to street drive it?

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These can be left in all the time.

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5. Stiffer motor mounts
6. Stiffer suspension
7. Wastegate/spool-up control - progressive opening of the wastegate could be used to bring the boost up at slower rate - staying within traction limits
8. Limited slip diffrentials

then in my opinion traction bars for our car should definitly be made, if jeff cant do it maybe we could contact a company for a group buy

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its from '95 jdm sw20
i know i know my screename is misleading

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You can't just drive around in slicks all the time

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Two settings isn't going to bring you to the limits of traction in each gear... but pretty close

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I am not sure that 5 or 6 would help with traction
7 is the same as 3
8 is one I forgot because I already have it

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5. Stiffer motor mounts help reduce wheel hop caused by motor vibration, but that is only an issue with a hard launch...
6. Stiffer suspension does help to keep grip on corners and also on launch, i know that from my own experience
7. Full wastegate control, like a device which you can plug into computer and see the graph of boost vs rpm vs angle of the gate, yes any ebc has an option which lets you set the point of opening the wastegate prior to reaching max allowable boost, and that is used to fine tune for best compromise between laggy spoolup and boost spike. A device/feature in ebc that I am talking about is opening a wastegate at a chosen angle at a chosen boost/rpm/time and therefore modifying the output of a turbo to produce power slower/less torque in lower gears, not necessarily just stoping boost increase at preselected level (any ebc), but allowing the boost to rise at slower rate can help stay in grip. With such device you could fine-tune power level to meet the margin of your tires' grip...
8. I'm jealous

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I have never heard of such a thing. Do you have a link I could look at?

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Maybe I will see if Carl wants to produce a set for a group buy....

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Nope, never heard of it either but such device SHOULD exist, I mean it would be too beneficial for turbo FWD cars to be able to manipulate power output is such way. Well I hope that in today's era of SRT4 someone will surely will see a great value to such device/feature, and some performance parts producer will surely relase a product capable of such WG control.

About them traction control computers, what are our options and on what principle do they work?

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Please do! I would certainly be down to get one of these

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 9:32 AM

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Racelogic Traction Control - the Supra guys swear by it.

Racelogic Traction Control

As for your wastegate device, in application, I do not think that it would work any differently from RPM dependent boost control since its not the onset of boost that causes problem but a boost point that the wheels spin at a given gear and RPM. Also, the list I created was one of realistic options - not pipedreams. j/k

I will put a feeler group buy thread together for the traction bars to see if there is sufficient interest before contacting Carl - he is just like any other business man - he will do it if there is money to be made.

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Oh in my pipedream list of grip improvers i forgot to mention filling the tire tread grooves with superglue+egg yolk mixture that gives unlimited grip and positive tread wear

But all in all, you'r right, rpm dependent boost control... well apex'i avcr can do that right?? if it has sufficient memory for at least a two boost vs rpm maps then i will get the avcr instead of eboost2 since its cheaper.

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DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 11:10 AM

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9. Superglue and egg yolk tread application

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are you saying that your traction problems are SO bad that you need something for everday use? i find that a little hard to belive. all you need is a good set of street tires and a little driver skill and you should have pretty good traction for anything you need to do on the street. most of the hard driving i do on the street starts out from a 2nd gear roll and i try to control the car with my right foot.


how exactly do traction bars work and where do they bolt on to? i always thought of them as something that sticks out from the back of the car to help reduce weight transfer.

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Art, its not that he has no choice but to spin the tires. He is saying that he cannot harness all of the power for quicker accelleration on the street. Frankly, I have this problem every time I get in my car. Its frustrating to dump all this money in a car and then not be able to use the power.

This is an excellent thread. Keep the info coming guys....no more pipe dreams though.

thing is art...you never really drive your car hard enough...lol j/k
you know what i mean tho...most guys that swap dont baby the car as much as you do, especially in the lower gears...
i know for me..anytime i get on it in 1st, or 2nd, traction IS a problem.
i think the idea of gear dependant boost control is a VERY viable option for guys like us.

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Exactly !

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I started researching traction bars right after posting this topic and i found this info [Credits to John Pajak, Mike Bloomer for this information.]

Traction / No Hop Bars
The coil spring traction bars are actually upper control arm positioners. You don't see 'em unless you crawl under the car and actually look way up there.

They do make slapper-style bars for the GM coil spring A-bodies. I've heard they work great but would prefer the stealth of the upper control arm relocation type of traction device.

Traction bars are only for leaf spring cars because a leaf spring car the springs control the "bounce" and locate the axle. In a high hp car, the spring will twist between the axle and the front spring eye. What the traction bar does is make a solid link between the axle and frame when the axle tries to twist.

As far as coil spring cars, traction bars wouldn't do anything since you already have solid suspension links. Equivalents would run the gammut from ladder bars to lift bars and hop stop bars. Ladder bars are just that though I haven't seen them around for years. Basically they worked just like on a drag car but they didn't work all that great.

Lift bars and/or hop stop bars or upper bar relocators all work by revising the stock 4 link geometry. All the upper echelon drag cars with tube frames run 4 links and the GM 4 link can be made to work just as well. The lift bars usually replace the bottom bars and are popular for 5.0's (different susp design) but I think I have seen them for 64-78 A bodies.

The hop stop kits and upper bar relocators move the axle mount for the upper bar higher moving the instant center of the 4 link closer to the center of gravity of the car. With proper tuning, the factory 4 link can get enough traction to launch very hard (pull front wheels off the ground w/10" slicks) but to do so, it usually requires strip only modifications to soften up the suspension for wieght transfer. As far as looking good, most cars I've seen with traction bars look riduculous because it is actually rare to see one that's adjusted right.

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My car will be finished by the end of this week I hope. So from then on I can experience of I also have a lot of traction issues. If its are unbearable I will go for the Racelogic TCS rightaway. 18" tires cost a fortune here (the good one's)Not that thats the reason I want TC, the real reason is for the winter/rain period. Already had it with the 3S-GE engine on a Incline slippery conditions+worn tyres going backwards, what an ackward moment was that!

Biggest problem for me will be fitting the wheel sensors. since my car does not have ABS.
Maybe when the time comes, I will get a TRD/Kaaz 1,5 LSD. But I think to much mechanical grip will destroy the tranny in the long run. And spare/junkyard trannies are rare here.

About traction bars, if they are a direct fit for EU GT (which i think they will) I'am also interested but shipping would be a PITA.

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dont get me wrong, its a problem for me too, but i just think back at all the hard acceleration/racing that i have done and 80% of it was always from a roll. i would break loose for a few seconds but was alwasy able to regain the lost traction, by controling the throttle. i think most of it is all about the tires you put on the car. lets face it, most of us have tons of money thrown into our cars but alwasy cheap out on tire choice. i laugh when i see stock civics with better tires then i have..lol

This post has been edited by lagos: May 23, 2006 - 12:57 PM

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No the issue is not only launch, even on a roll at any rpm point in 1st and 2nd gear stompin WOT will make my wheels spin after i reach higher boost level

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Your right, but when i got my brand new yokahama parada spec2 (im not saying they are great or anything like that, but they are not bad either), I still had the same issue, and it feels as no street tires can handle that power...

what tire do they put on the stock SRT-4's?

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yeah, mine does the same thing... but i have a feeling that even if you turn the boost down to 7psi, it will still be enough to break you loose.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 23, 2006 - 1:24 PM