the 7afe and 4age heads are remarkably similar. The spacing between the intake and exhaust on both engines are absolutely miniscule.

hey nik. I had my 4a and 7a heads side by side the other day... and was thinking: the 4ag exhaust valves are fairly small... I wonder what gains would be made by getting larger ones... like the 7afe intake valves for instance. Just throwing that out for discussion.(and yes, I know machining would be necessary)

Any news on those rod dimensions? >>

This post has been edited by FallenHero: May 1, 2005 - 11:05 PM

The spacing between the B series manifold and 4AG/7AF heads will match up. The only issue is swapping flanges, and possibly doing something about the runners. The 4AG/7AF heads use round runners while the B series have oval runners. I can post pictures if needed... but the runners do line up enough to work.

-Kwanza26+May 1, 2005 - 10:01 PM


you could have responded to my 4ag exhaust valve question. >>

-FallenHero+May 2, 2005 - 5:12 AM
Well... your question only asks for opinion. I don't like to state my opinion too much in fear people might take it literally.. ;]

IMO... exhaust isn't an area I would worry too much about. Intake perhaps... but exhaust, not really. I personally would try not to play with valves untill your engine reaches flat spots in the powerband, which relates to engine breathing. That could be quite a ways away with boost...

on my manifold i had 2 options leave the oval part from the honda manifold or cut it off where it goes round and make little extensions off the 4ag flange.

i'm guessing cut it at round
and branch from the 4a/7a flange

-playr158+May 2, 2005 - 9:03 AM

yep >>

update 5/2/05

ordered ACT 6 puck clutch today
droped off my crower cams 272 intake and 272 exhaust
need to get another ASP 18% Underdrive Crank Pulley

trying to sell my
AE101 harness and ecu + the greddy Profec E-01 and E-manager
so i can buy an SDS system

and the RODS should be in thrusday

I am using your thread nik. >>

So what is the biggest bore you guys have heard of on a 7afe. I've seen 82mm, but I wonder if you could take on to 83, or 84mm... in the grand scheme of things, that isn't much of a difference, but i wanted you guys' input.

-FallenHero+May 4, 2005 - 10:18 AM

yeah edo's 82mm is as big of a bore that i've heard of. I read a post over on club4ag about bore size + rev limit and some other stuff

but anyways they were saying to take advantage of the bigger bore you would need higher rev i'll have to find the link it had some good info

here it is

All Forums
Beginner's Talk - For Newcomers
why oversized pistons? New Topic Add Poll
Reply to Topic
Printer Friendly

Author Topic
montj
Club4AG - Freshman


USA
11 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 00:40:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ive seen 1mm-.5mm oversized pistons available.

is it for getting your cylinders bored to match the pistons? for a better seal


wolfman
Club4AG - Freshman



15 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 02:38:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
could be a lot of reasons. I'm in no way an expert, so someone else may correct me (or just a difference in oppinion). If you are trying to bump up power. Don't know if .5 mm will make that much a difference. If you're rebuilding and your cylinders are warped. Maybee like you said to get a better piston seal, which you're probably running bigger pistons in search of more power. hope this helped a little bit.


oldeskewltoy
Club4AG - The 24/7 Club


USA
4558 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 06:14:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there can be two reasons for an overbore, 1) the cylinders are damaged and need to be overbored to acquire a clean honeable surface, 2) you are looking for more power and a overbore will increase displacement


Red
Club4AG - Lifetime Enthusiast



1365 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 08:36:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And sometimes a third reason, if the cylinders are simply worn from old age. Maybe that counts as "damage"?

Original Owner, 85GTS 3-door 5speed. Will swap even for a Ford GT40 or GT44, or a Cadillac-Gage V100. (Which is nothing like a Cadillac.)

oldeskewltoy
Club4AG - The 24/7 Club


USA
4558 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 14:29:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And sometimes a third reason, if the cylinders are simply worn from old age. Maybe that counts as "damage"?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thats why I was as vague as I was... damage to cylinder walls encompasses wear, or damage....


DWLowe13
Club4AG - Addict


USA
297 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 16:54:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of the time when I rebuild an engine, I overboar to get rid of imperfections in the cylinder wall.

In small blocks like the 4AGE, .5mm and 1mm is a very big differance. You do not want much more. Due to the thining of your cylinder walls. If you go over to much the walls become weak.

I do know of one shop on the east coast, Wayne and Earl Edge of Edge Bros Machine Shop in Jacksonville NC, that will over boar engines by 2mm-3mm. But they also install sleeves into the cylinder walls that reinforce the block.

Overboaring is a way to increase HP. But the risk is you make your block that much weaker and easier to crack under stress...

" If You Fail To Plan
You Plan To FAil "
DWLowe13

DWLowe13
Club4AG - Addict


USA
297 Posts Posted - 04/29/2005 : 17:01:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is some more info about Boring and sleeves, from the circle track world..

Seeking The Right Bore Jenckes found a possible advantage of using sleeves: They come with bigger bores. "Today, people find that particular bore and stroke combinations are very effective," he adds. "Typically, people are running bigger bores and they find that, no matter what the application, a bigger bore may be helpful. I'd certainly say that's the trend in Nextel Cup. Obviously, if you want to make a block last a long time, you can't go to the big bore size immediately. You'll get one rebuild, and then it's junk and you've just spent all this time building this nice block. A sleeve can allow you to go to your optimal bore size. When you have problems, just replace the sleeves.





Boring for cam bearings is a precision step in which modern engine builders rely on high-cost machinery. When building an engine, there's plenty of emphasis on the operator as well as the machine.

"Some teams in Nextel Cup use sleeves, and some don't. In Nextel Cup, the well is deep money wise, but it's not endless. Consider that you can use a smaller number of pistons and crankshafts, and that means less money tied up in crank and piston inventory. Some teams might approach it from that standpoint."

Power From Bore Center Bigger bores have proven to have better results in most cases. "A larger centerline is preferable because it allows you to have a bigger bore," says Jenckes. "A Ford block has an inherent handicap compared to a Chevrolet or the current Dodge because of the smaller centerline. Having more metal there, other than a weight handicap, means it's more stable and it can allow you to run a bigger bore.

"Most racing has some kind of displacement rule. As long as there's not a bore size rule, you're probably better off running a bigger bore, shorter stroke if engine speed is not limited. If you are limited in engine speed for some reason, say an rpm limit, then always going with a bigger bore may not be the way to go, depending on how low the speed is. At higher shaft speeds, bigger bore engines help the cylinder heads work better. In Nextel Cup, 4.185-inch is the biggest bore size you can have. Even if you have 5 inches between bore centers, it doesn't help you other than the fact you've got more metal there to be stable. Then you have to worry about the weight. The trend has been to bigger bore cylinders. GM is working on a new, next generation Nextel Cup engine with a bigger bore center.


" If You Fail To Plan
You Plan To FAil "
DWLowe13

montj
Club4AG - Freshman


USA
11 Posts Posted - 04/30/2005 : 01:48:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nice. Clears that up for me, thanks.


DWLowe13
Club4AG - Addict


USA
297 Posts Posted - 05/02/2005 : 15:43:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Problem..

" If You Fail To Plan
You Plan To FAil "
DWLowe13

othick
Club4AG - Addict


USA
680 Posts Posted - 05/04/2005 : 01:56:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1mm overbore in a 4ag = approx 40cc's more displacement. A 1627cc 4ag will make about 2.5% more hp/tq than a standard 1587cc 4ag. Closed deck iron blocks can usually handle this no problem. The later 7rib 4ag's are bored out 2mm quite frequently.

85 gts coupe 105whp
91 civic si sohc vtec
http://www.whyturbothat.com for pics and dyno's of my old cars
- turbo del sol, turbo mr2, turbo ae86, 6cyl. 77 celica, 88 Mr2 SC





This post has been edited by nik: May 4, 2005 - 12:37 PM

I believe the largest bore you can get before serious issues arise is around 83mm... and no more. The reason being, the blocks solid design, which you can't resleeve bigger nor can you overbore too much because it'll cause the cylinder walls/waterjackets, etc, to get really thin...

i was considering an 83mm bore on my 7afte when i go into that project
but i think with 12psi that would be cutting the walls too thin...........i think an 82mm would be sufficient w/o sleeving

update

last night at 12:34am
I won a Stand Alone engine Managment system

its an EM-3 4F from SDS >>

and today hopefully the wiring harness and ecu will sell along with my piggy back system >>

update

piggy back came yesterday i just need to send it in to get rewired and a few extra parts

on the engine side should get the under drive pulley this week then i can got the routing assembly balanced

so everthing should be done or close to done in about 2 weeks then i'll drop the car off cause i dont have the time to drop the motor in and wire it up

so probably a month from now or so i'll be driving the beast around

update a little break down

-7agte engine whp= torque=
- 4agze big port head $80
- stage 2 port and polish $700
- ferrea valves with titanium springs and retainers $400
-4agze oem piston (8.0;1) 82mm ceramic coat and fpr coated $200
-Puater custom 4340 chromoly rods 20 mm pins $700
-Innovation turbo sh 50 450hp capable $800
-B series honda manifold cut and 4ag welded flange $350
-38mm wastegate $100
-Greddy RS bov $170
-greddy Profec B boost controller $240
-custom Team 66 = 2.5" intercooler piping $130
-custom 3" downpipe and exhaust all mandrel bends $175
-custom exhaust 3" mandrel full from dp $N/A
-Johnnyracecar 32x8x3 intercooler $220
-ngk 4agze spark plug $20
-nology wires $150
-greddy oil catch tank $50
-SDS standalone engine management $1000
-hks cam gears both $200
-Crower camshafts (272 in. , 272 ex.) $175
-HKS head gasket $ 55
-arp head bolt $140
-fully balanced rods, pistons, crank , flywheel, underdrive pulley $100
-oem flywheel $40
-ACT 6 puck clutch $438
-550cc injectors $N/A
-walbro 255 lph intank fuel pump $90

and about $1000 in labor
this is not the full list just most of it
today im going down to get some updated pics that i'll post a few maybe >>

Nik, did you got back the stock rods?

updates and pic you guys were waiting for

nice nice nice

and which honda manifold is that?

-playr158+May 25, 2005 - 8:25 AM

its the b-series manifold >>

i know a b-series
but which one

there are many different b-series turbo manis
like brand?

-playr158+May 25, 2005 - 10:24 AM


there are quite a few companies making this style manifold

REVHARD, and few others ebay has some

UPDATE 05/25/05

ordered springs and titanium retainers cost $ 400

intercooler came in yesterday

this weekend going to start welding up the intercooler piping then take it down and have it power coated along with some other stuff

-FAQdaWorld+May 25, 2005 - 11:16 AM

well the b-series manifold has an oval exhaust ports and the 7afe and 4age have round so you just and to go in an inch and half and cut where the piping returns to circle then palce the flange on the motor and line up the openings tack weld a few spots on each pipe pull it off and weld them up then check for leaks.

-playr158+May 25, 2005 - 11:19 AM
My manifold is set up for external waste gate take a closer look
in this first pic the untouched manifold you can see the wastegate mounting point on the right side
BEFORE

AFTER

-MonsterBOX+May 25, 2005 - 11:21 AM

350 whp or more

This post has been edited by nik: May 25, 2005 - 2:04 PM

yea i noticed that you took it out

-playr158+May 25, 2005 - 12:50 PM
>> no the external waste gate flange is still there?? or are you talking about the inch that got cut from the original manifold?

That's a nice looking manifold. Hope it doesn't affect the distributor placement (assuming you use a dizzy...) Hurry up and get that sh!t together nik... ;]

-Kwanza26+May 25, 2005 - 1:53 PM

nope i went SDS 4-F well 3-F with upgrades >>
I'm just machining a plate to go over the stock dizzy place

i was noting the inch that got cut out

-nik+May 25, 2005 - 9:01 PM
Sweet! Don't need to machine a plate though nik. ;]
90339-36001
That part number is for a plug that covers the dizzy hole on the 97+ Toyota Camrys. It'll work fine for the 16V head also... ;] Go to Toyota and order it. Should be something like 5-10 dollars... I used one for my 20V dizzy blockoff...


This post has been edited by Kwanza26: May 25, 2005 - 4:17 PM

-Kwanza26+May 25, 2005 - 2:17 PM


thanks BEE for the info and i'll try and hurry up and finish this but i want to do it right so it might take a little time but nothing too bad >> assembly starts in T- 7 days >> (just waiting on valve springs)