$$$ talks
the big displacement will give more torque + HP...
Let's do it & go to the Dyno....
the big displacement will give more torque + HP...
Let's do it & go to the Dyno....
3s head on 5s - 6G Celicas Forums
Thanks for the post Kwanza but it sure is couunter intuitive. I find it difficult to believe that more displacement with the same head will yield less overall horsepower. I am going to do some more reading on rod / stroke ratio and piston dwell. Thanks again.
QUOTE(lagos @ Jul 10, 2006 - 1:55 PM) [snapback]454118[/snapback]i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.
ahhh i LOVE this stuff. EXCELLENT post, kwanza.
now, can you explain a little about what the diffrence is between a 5s based stroker (3s 2.2l) and a 3s based stroker is, ive seen a bunch of diffrent stuff posted on the mr2 boards (mostly chrisk's posts) about how he builds 2.1 and 2.2l strokers based on the customers goals ect..can you break some of that down for us?
>
>
now, can you explain a little about what the diffrence is between a 5s based stroker (3s 2.2l) and a 3s based stroker is, ive seen a bunch of diffrent stuff posted on the mr2 boards (mostly chrisk's posts) about how he builds 2.1 and 2.2l strokers based on the customers goals ect..can you break some of that down for us?
>
>
Former Team 5SFTE pro member ;)13.6@108MPH, 5SFTE Powered
this is a massage I got from jim :
3S oil and water pump will fit 5S block. You must use 5S oil cooler and coolant hard lines. 3S rods will fit 5S crank if you get the journals grinded, or use the weaker 5S rods with no modifications You cannot use 3S or 5S pistons, you have to use custom CP or Wiseco pistons available from chrisk on the board.
Well, if youre using the 5SFE block you need the 5SFE pistons unless you get an overbored set of 3SGTE ones, which would pretty much make them 5SFE pistons. Youll have to get the crank modified if you use 3SGTE rods as well. That combo should have no problem hitting 300 hp.
A month? Wishful thinking. It took three months to get all machine work done and have all parts in, engine assembled and car fired up. Both rods will fit, upgraded 5S rods are $$$$, 3S rods are cheaper but you'll still spend a bit to grind down the journals on the crank. CP makes stroker pistons that are the size of 5S pistons but with valve reliefs for the 3S head. Depending on the 5S block you may need to have water channels drilled. Etc etc. A good time to consider upgrading the head.
this is jim's web site http://redblues.com/index3.html
3S oil and water pump will fit 5S block. You must use 5S oil cooler and coolant hard lines. 3S rods will fit 5S crank if you get the journals grinded, or use the weaker 5S rods with no modifications You cannot use 3S or 5S pistons, you have to use custom CP or Wiseco pistons available from chrisk on the board.
Well, if youre using the 5SFE block you need the 5SFE pistons unless you get an overbored set of 3SGTE ones, which would pretty much make them 5SFE pistons. Youll have to get the crank modified if you use 3SGTE rods as well. That combo should have no problem hitting 300 hp.
A month? Wishful thinking. It took three months to get all machine work done and have all parts in, engine assembled and car fired up. Both rods will fit, upgraded 5S rods are $$$$, 3S rods are cheaper but you'll still spend a bit to grind down the journals on the crank. CP makes stroker pistons that are the size of 5S pistons but with valve reliefs for the 3S head. Depending on the 5S block you may need to have water channels drilled. Etc etc. A good time to consider upgrading the head.
this is jim's web site http://redblues.com/index3.html
-Kwanza26+Aug 18, 2005 - 5:22 PM
that was an awesome explanation kwanza...you should write a book on this stuff...6TH Gen Celicas for Dummies, >
>
This post has been edited by Jdog1385: Aug 19, 2005 - 3:33 PM
QUOTE(Kwanza26 @ Aug 18, 2005 - 5:22 PM)
-jgreening+Aug 18, 2005 - 8:48 PM
Rod-stroke ratio. per psi of boost... a 5SGTE will make much more torque than a 3SGTE (because of the displacement), but because of it's poor piston dwell (relatively short rods in comparison to its stroke)... it won't make as much top-end power. It's the same reason why you don't see many n/a 5SGE's. The GE head can help change where horsepower peaks in the rpm band... but the engine's design is against top-end power.
If you compare the 5S rods and the 3S rods... they are almost identical in length. Considering the 5S has .2 liters more displacement... this means the 5S bottom-end is not designed with horsepower in mind. Even with a GE head... this characteristic isn't gonna change too much.
Comparatively speaking... take the 7AFE and the 2ZZGE. Both have nearly identical specs in terms of bore/stroke (82mm bore 85mm stroke for the 2ZZ and 81mm bore 85.5mm stroke for the 7A)... but the 2ZZ is a horsepower engine and is designed with rods, again, nearly identical in length to the 7A even though it lacks the stroke the 7A has. Compared to its (2ZZ) stroke, it has enough rod length to maintain good piston dwell and a stroke ratio to maintain top-end torque/power. As for the 7A... it's a very good design and has good performance potential... hence is why you see more n/a 7AGE's than n/a 5SGE's. Even turbocharged... these characteristics stay with the engine. In the 5S's case... n/a 5SGE isn't gonna be worth while. a turbo 5SGE (5SGTE) is the equalizer, since the turbo takes greater advantage of the displacement.
Am I starting to make sense yet? I'm not saying a 5SGTE is a bad build... it's an excellent build for say... a drag engine... but strictly speaking horsepower... a 3SGTE can match it. Hell... when people start talking about how such and such made 600 horses with a 5SGTE... I'll answer... you can make that much with a 5SFTE if you match the 5SGTE mod for mod. It's all about $$$ when it comes to boost...
[right][snapback]325633[/snapback][/right]
QUOTE(jgreening @ Aug 18, 2005 - 8:48 PM)
-Kwanza26+Aug 18, 2005 - 11:50 AM
Can you explain these two sentences in greater detail please? What are the geometric differences you speak of and why do those differences result in less horsepower for a higher displacement engine?
[right][snapback]325620[/snapback][/right]
QUOTE(Kwanza26 @ Aug 18, 2005 - 11:50 AM)
A typical 5SGTE build will probably yeild less power.... The 3SGTE will always have a better top-end because of the 5S block's geometry.
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[right][snapback]325519[/snapback][/right]
Can you explain these two sentences in greater detail please? What are the geometric differences you speak of and why do those differences result in less horsepower for a higher displacement engine?
[right][snapback]325620[/snapback][/right]
Rod-stroke ratio. per psi of boost... a 5SGTE will make much more torque than a 3SGTE (because of the displacement), but because of it's poor piston dwell (relatively short rods in comparison to its stroke)... it won't make as much top-end power. It's the same reason why you don't see many n/a 5SGE's. The GE head can help change where horsepower peaks in the rpm band... but the engine's design is against top-end power.
If you compare the 5S rods and the 3S rods... they are almost identical in length. Considering the 5S has .2 liters more displacement... this means the 5S bottom-end is not designed with horsepower in mind. Even with a GE head... this characteristic isn't gonna change too much.
Comparatively speaking... take the 7AFE and the 2ZZGE. Both have nearly identical specs in terms of bore/stroke (82mm bore 85mm stroke for the 2ZZ and 81mm bore 85.5mm stroke for the 7A)... but the 2ZZ is a horsepower engine and is designed with rods, again, nearly identical in length to the 7A even though it lacks the stroke the 7A has. Compared to its (2ZZ) stroke, it has enough rod length to maintain good piston dwell and a stroke ratio to maintain top-end torque/power. As for the 7A... it's a very good design and has good performance potential... hence is why you see more n/a 7AGE's than n/a 5SGE's. Even turbocharged... these characteristics stay with the engine. In the 5S's case... n/a 5SGE isn't gonna be worth while. a turbo 5SGE (5SGTE) is the equalizer, since the turbo takes greater advantage of the displacement.
Am I starting to make sense yet? I'm not saying a 5SGTE is a bad build... it's an excellent build for say... a drag engine... but strictly speaking horsepower... a 3SGTE can match it. Hell... when people start talking about how such and such made 600 horses with a 5SGTE... I'll answer... you can make that much with a 5SFTE if you match the 5SGTE mod for mod. It's all about $$$ when it comes to boost...
[right][snapback]325633[/snapback][/right]
that was an awesome explanation kwanza...you should write a book on this stuff...6TH Gen Celicas for Dummies, >
>
This post has been edited by Jdog1385: Aug 19, 2005 - 3:33 PM
> Punch
> '95 GT Hatchback
>If do this will be the frist 1 to have a 2.2 3s-gte in a 6gen????
Nope, been done several times. Sorry to tell U.
I saw one running in Vegas at a meet.
It had a severe traction issues with all the power
it was putting down. :-) Good burn out Queen.
How about This one ?
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2005/drivers/l_ferrer.html
(not quite stock any more... :-)
Stroker kits, hybrid engines; etc..: Are Not for the faint
of heart, or small of wallet. A lot of issues come up.
What ECU for One, plus wiring...
A stand alone is the Easiest and least expensive in the Long run.
But a killer initial investment.
Might be better to have someone that has already done it, do the work
for you ?
my 02c.
There is a LOT, Really a Lot if info out there.
Just search several boards, MR2, alltrac.net,
Toyomods etc.. or even Google.
Regards;
> '95 GT Hatchback
>If do this will be the frist 1 to have a 2.2 3s-gte in a 6gen????
Nope, been done several times. Sorry to tell U.
I saw one running in Vegas at a meet.
It had a severe traction issues with all the power
it was putting down. :-) Good burn out Queen.
How about This one ?
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2005/drivers/l_ferrer.html
(not quite stock any more... :-)
Stroker kits, hybrid engines; etc..: Are Not for the faint
of heart, or small of wallet. A lot of issues come up.
What ECU for One, plus wiring...
A stand alone is the Easiest and least expensive in the Long run.
But a killer initial investment.
Might be better to have someone that has already done it, do the work
for you ?
my 02c.
There is a LOT, Really a Lot if info out there.
Just search several boards, MR2, alltrac.net,
Toyomods etc.. or even Google.
Regards;
thew link does not work
I saw that car run a 8.5 at moroso
that car is a full RWD race car!!! that don't count...
This post has been edited by Punch: Aug 22, 2005 - 11:34 PM
that car is a full RWD race car!!! that don't count...
This post has been edited by Punch: Aug 22, 2005 - 11:34 PM
I did my home work on that car. It was built for drag; it put 850hp !!!
punch any more pics of that car or maybe a website ?
I will return one day.
only pic...
I think I am probably going to do this project but not till winter. Is anyone else going to do this so we can help each other? Might as well seeing how I don't know any other celica owners that did this.
I will do it soon so we can go hand and hand....
Excellent. >
>
>
i still got that rebuilt 3s head .... i will let it go for 315 shipped!
pm me if interested
dg
pm me if interested
dg
-presure2+Aug 19, 2005 - 12:19 AM
I would only be in a position to make a hypothesis... but my first assumption will be simply... these strokers are all based on forced induction. When forced induction is applied, greater displacement can make more potential power, since more torque is available early on (ala horsepower formula). However, when it comes to an n/a engine, the engine must spin faster in order to make power because it's not being force-fed. The 5S block is limited in how fast it allows induction, based on it's stroke ratio, rod length, and various other little things. Even if you have a head that is a very capable breather, if the bottom-end cannot "suck" in enough air fast enough, no additional power is gonna be made. People should understand... the head does not breathe on its own... in fact... it does very little breathing. Breathing is triggered by the piston travel...
As for a 3S strokers... well, to start... the 3S and 5S blocks have different main journal sizes. I know the JUN 3S stroker crank is basically be a new crank with new rods and pistons (specs are nearly identical to the 5S). The 5S stroker is simply using the 5S bottom-end with new pistons. I'll guess that the 2.1 stroker is using the 5S crank in the 3S block. Because the 3S block doesn't have the same deck height as the 5S, some displacement is lost, hence 2.1 liters. I'm not sure exactly what these guys do... but based on that information... that's my educated guess. I do believe in displacement... but all things considered, 2.0 to 2.2 is small-time and is not gonna show huge results as some may think. I personally feel the 2.0 has many great advantages and is excellent as is... but many may want to do the extra mile for the additional torque (mostly between 2500-4500 rpms)... but it's all give/take.
QUOTE(presure2 @ Aug 19, 2005 - 12:19 AM)
ahhh i LOVE this stuff. EXCELLENT post, kwanza.
now, can you explain a little about what the diffrence is between a 5s based stroker (3s 2.2l) and a 3s based stroker is, ive seen a bunch of diffrent stuff posted on the mr2 boards (mostly chrisk's posts) about how he builds 2.1 and 2.2l strokers based on the customers goals ect..can you break some of that down for us?
>>
[right][snapback]325672[/snapback][/right]
now, can you explain a little about what the diffrence is between a 5s based stroker (3s 2.2l) and a 3s based stroker is, ive seen a bunch of diffrent stuff posted on the mr2 boards (mostly chrisk's posts) about how he builds 2.1 and 2.2l strokers based on the customers goals ect..can you break some of that down for us?
>
>[right][snapback]325672[/snapback][/right]
I would only be in a position to make a hypothesis... but my first assumption will be simply... these strokers are all based on forced induction. When forced induction is applied, greater displacement can make more potential power, since more torque is available early on (ala horsepower formula). However, when it comes to an n/a engine, the engine must spin faster in order to make power because it's not being force-fed. The 5S block is limited in how fast it allows induction, based on it's stroke ratio, rod length, and various other little things. Even if you have a head that is a very capable breather, if the bottom-end cannot "suck" in enough air fast enough, no additional power is gonna be made. People should understand... the head does not breathe on its own... in fact... it does very little breathing. Breathing is triggered by the piston travel...
As for a 3S strokers... well, to start... the 3S and 5S blocks have different main journal sizes. I know the JUN 3S stroker crank is basically be a new crank with new rods and pistons (specs are nearly identical to the 5S). The 5S stroker is simply using the 5S bottom-end with new pistons. I'll guess that the 2.1 stroker is using the 5S crank in the 3S block. Because the 3S block doesn't have the same deck height as the 5S, some displacement is lost, hence 2.1 liters. I'm not sure exactly what these guys do... but based on that information... that's my educated guess. I do believe in displacement... but all things considered, 2.0 to 2.2 is small-time and is not gonna show huge results as some may think. I personally feel the 2.0 has many great advantages and is excellent as is... but many may want to do the extra mile for the additional torque (mostly between 2500-4500 rpms)... but it's all give/take.
"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"1995 AT200 Celica ST:stocked out daily driver...1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5:silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...1991 SW2x MR2 n/a:bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
additional torque on that 3s head with the turbo will make the car have alot of top end gain...
At the same time the car will have low end torque & be fun to drive on the street.
At the same time the car will have low end torque & be fun to drive on the street.
If I put a 3s head on my 5s but I don't want to turbo it does it matter what the head is from a 3sgte or a 3sge?
-Punch+Aug 29, 2005 - 4:16 AM
-Boss-Celica+Aug 30, 2005 - 1:50 PM
God... it's pointless trying to explain sh!t sometimes... people don't ask questions anymore... merely want confirmation on their dumb pipe dreams... >
>
QUOTE(Punch @ Aug 29, 2005 - 4:16 AM)
additional torque on that 3s head with the turbo will make the car have alot of top end gain...
At the same time the car will have low end torque & be fun to drive on the street.
[right][snapback]328946[/snapback][/right]
At the same time the car will have low end torque & be fun to drive on the street.
[right][snapback]328946[/snapback][/right]
-Boss-Celica+Aug 30, 2005 - 1:50 PM
QUOTE(Boss-Celica @ Aug 30, 2005 - 1:50 PM)
If I put a 3s head on my 5s but I don't want to turbo it does it matter what the head is from a 3sgte or a 3sge?
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[right][snapback]329384[/snapback][/right]
God... it's pointless trying to explain sh!t sometimes... people don't ask questions anymore... merely want confirmation on their dumb pipe dreams... >
>
"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"1995 AT200 Celica ST:stocked out daily driver...1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5:silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...1991 SW2x MR2 n/a:bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
hope thats not a hit at me Kwanza26 ...
I done thing to cars you would never dream of.....
I done thing to cars you would never dream of.....
-Punch+Sep 1, 2005 - 11:40 PM
sure doesn't show... You're more like the guy who knows a guy who did things I've never dreamed of... but really... what do you know about what I do? I could care less what you think you know or what you've supposedly done... especially when it's always hearsay. It doesn't matter to me... what matters is the knowlegde shown in posts... the kind of off-hand stuff that is *known* to you through "FIRST-HAND"experience... not because you've seen a car or have a friend who knows a friend. What I think doesn't really matter... so take that as you will.
It's a shot at everyone really... They ask questions... they get answers that don't quite support their fantasies... then they either ignore all... or get upset that no-one is *really* helping them. Sad... but why do you figure all of the tech people... the ones with real "FIRST_HAND" knowledge have been quite silent lately?
QUOTE(Punch @ Sep 1, 2005 - 11:40 PM)
hope thats not a hit at me Kwanza26 ...
I done thing to cars you would never dream of.....
[right][snapback]330295[/snapback][/right]
I done thing to cars you would never dream of.....
[right][snapback]330295[/snapback][/right]
sure doesn't show... You're more like the guy who knows a guy who did things I've never dreamed of... but really... what do you know about what I do? I could care less what you think you know or what you've supposedly done... especially when it's always hearsay. It doesn't matter to me... what matters is the knowlegde shown in posts... the kind of off-hand stuff that is *known* to you through "FIRST-HAND"experience... not because you've seen a car or have a friend who knows a friend. What I think doesn't really matter... so take that as you will.
It's a shot at everyone really... They ask questions... they get answers that don't quite support their fantasies... then they either ignore all... or get upset that no-one is *really* helping them. Sad... but why do you figure all of the tech people... the ones with real "FIRST_HAND" knowledge have been quite silent lately?
"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"1995 AT200 Celica ST:stocked out daily driver...1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5:silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...1991 SW2x MR2 n/a:bare bones hardtop model soon to be...
LOL say what you will people seen what I've done, thats all I need ...
Your not helping me at all!!!
Your not helping me at all!!!
-Punch+Sep 12, 2005 - 2:04 PM
True that.
QUOTE(Punch @ Sep 12, 2005 - 2:04 PM)
LOL say what you will people seen what I've done, thats all I need ...
Your not helping me at all!!!
[right][snapback]333331[/snapback][/right]
Your not helping me at all!!!
[right][snapback]333331[/snapback][/right]
True that.
maybe a how to + parts ????...jus a thought
thats not bad idea...
QUOTE
LOL say what you will people seen what I've done, thats all I need ...
Your not helping me at all!!!
Your not helping me at all!!!
your not letting him help you. obviously you dont know him too well. i mean look at the time he took to write some of those replies. thats some serious knowledge right there that you just put down.
more power to him...
Eh, I'm actually in agreement with Punch's project. Only because I hear the 5S block is stronger than the 3S block. Got this from MR2OC.com
thanks BLADDER_MASTER you should come by the shop som time is one block down from jamasco...
check out som of the we do...