Hanyo

#1

What is the best Naturally Aspired engine for toyota?

I hear beams and silver top thrown around. But what is the BEST? Which one has the most power to weight ratio? Most power after modifications?

Is the 7th gen gts engine the best n/a engine toyota offers?

FallenHero

#2

Probably is the 2zz for power and reliability. However, the formula atlantic 20v's were animals on the race track.

orvillescelica

#3

3sge beams black top, but youll never find one in this country

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Its Orville's Celica, i just drive it...

ST-204

#4

Nope, it has one swapped 3S-GE "BEAMS"-blacktop IS300 in Cali, this car was fecking cool with golden color.

Coomer

#5

I've heard bad things about the 2ZZ-GE's design and components compared to the 4A-GE and 3S-GE. Isn't it a weaker aluminum block compared to the 4A and 3S iron blocks? I've experienced both a 4A-GE and a 3S-GE in my cars, and the 3S-GE felt torquier, but lacked the high RPM power that I get with my 4A-GE. I've never experienced a later-model 3S-GE or a blacktop 4A-GE though, but both the 4A-GE and 3S-GE are excellent engines.

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New Toyota project coming soon...

Hanyo

#6

i always thought the beams engine was the best, Because there is no replacement for displacement.

But with its additional displacement, comes additionaly weight. Is this extra displacement good enough to offset the extra weight?

Dr_Tweak

#7

-Hanyo+Sep 21, 2005 - 7:05 AM

QUOTE(Hanyo @ Sep 21, 2005 - 7:05 AM)

i always thought the beams engine was the best, Because there is no replacement for displacement.

But with its additional displacement, comes additionaly weight. Is this extra displacement good enough to offset the extra weight?
[right][snapback]336862[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, I'd say so. If I had to choose an n/a four cylinder, it would be the 3SGE Beams without a doubt.

-Doc

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-Dr Tweak, 6GC's resident engine swap wiring expert extraordinaireClick here to see my swapsdrtweak@phoenixtuning.com

macavely

#8

power to weight that has to dowith the chasie and the engine combo .

for what i have read and ther resarch i have done.. it all comes down to how much time and money you are willing to put into the block .. but if you want a good starting point i would go with the 3s ge black top...

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[TeamNJCT

Akimbo

#9

beams or 2zz...the 2zz ran a 13.7 with I/E/H, I don't know much about either though

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Sometimes we live to beat the odds.-Ryanaim: rkgreen04

FallenHero

#10

2zz is whp per ltr.and that 13.7 was with drag slicks I believe.... still impressive though.

You can add a Apexi PFC to the 2zz and consistently run low 14's with no other mods. Throw in the I, E, H, and you are making 180-200 whp NA.

boosted_K2

#11

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)

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Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them allNo but I don't buy itLike anything you do, as anyone you areCause I'm...Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial

Boss-Celica

#12

Beams 3s or 20v 4age

Coomer

#13

-boosted_K2+Sep 21, 2005 - 9:53 AM

QUOTE(boosted_K2 @ Sep 21, 2005 - 9:53 AM)

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)
[right][snapback]336944[/snapback][/right]

The blacktop BEAMS 3S-GE motor was only found in the Altezza...the Celica got the redtop version. >>

And yeah, that V8 swapped ST185 used a Tundra V8...wasn't it twin-turbocharged as well?

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New Toyota project coming soon...

95CelicaST

#14

Beams, no doubt. 4 cylinder with 210HP stock (redtop) is something I would say is pretty damn good.

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1991 MR2 - T-tops - Crimson Red - Gen3 3SGTE - Lots of moneyI'm not really an asshole, but I play one on the internet.**** Photobucket

Shigexile

#15

-95CelicaST+Sep 21, 2005 - 12:18 PM

QUOTE(95CelicaST @ Sep 21, 2005 - 12:18 PM)

Beams, no doubt. 4 cylinder with 210HP stock (redtop) is something I would say is pretty damn good.
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i thought the black top is 210.

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PROJECT 6TH GEN<FS: Things up for grabs><Progress>

BLADDER_MASTER

#16

-Coomer+Sep 21, 2005 - 12:49 PM

QUOTE(Coomer @ Sep 21, 2005 - 12:49 PM)

-boosted_K2+Sep 21, 2005 - 9:53 AM

QUOTE(boosted_K2 @ Sep 21, 2005 - 9:53 AM)

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)
[right][snapback]336944[/snapback][/right]

The blacktop BEAMS 3S-GE motor was only found in the Altezza...the Celica got the redtop version. >>

And yeah, that V8 swapped ST185 used a Tundra V8...wasn't it twin-turbocharged as well?
[right][snapback]336962[/snapback][/right]

No. The V8 swapped ST185 used a 4.0L V8 from a Lexus LS400. And indeed it was twin-turbocharged.

Back to topic, IMO 4A-GE and 3S-GE are the best. The 2ZZ-GE can be as good but it needs more aftermarket. There still ain't no cams for the damn thing. Highest HP 4A-GE i've seen is the 240HP Formula Atlantic engine. Highest HP 3S-GE i've seen is the 270PS TRD engine. Still waiting on the 2ZZ-GE to come out with similar numbers.

Redtop = 200PS
Blacktop = 210PS

This post has been edited by BLADDER_MASTER: Sep 21, 2005 - 2:46 PM

pokemeintheeye

#17

I know everyones talking bout the blacktop Beams, but how much better is a redtop Beams compared to the 3rd generation 3sge? I'd imagine the 3rd generation 3sge should have more aftermarket support cause the redtop Beams was only around for a couple of years. But how much better is it compared to the 3rd generation 3sge?

ST-204

#18

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.

Shigexile

#19

-ST-204+Sep 21, 2005 - 5:35 PM

QUOTE(ST-204 @ Sep 21, 2005 - 5:35 PM)

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.
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k20 is crazy... man... DC5

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PROJECT 6TH GEN<FS: Things up for grabs><Progress>

boosted_K2

#20

yea sorry i meant redtop, not blacktop i was looking at a black crows CD case and was thinking black and meant to say red haha

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Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them allNo but I don't buy itLike anything you do, as anyone you areCause I'm...Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial

ST-204

#21

-Shigexile+Sep 22, 2005 - 1:19 AM

QUOTE(Shigexile @ Sep 22, 2005 - 1:19 AM)

-ST-204+Sep 21, 2005 - 5:35 PM

QUOTE(ST-204 @ Sep 21, 2005 - 5:35 PM)

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.
[right][snapback]337109[/snapback][/right]

k20 is crazy... man... DC5
[right][snapback]337146[/snapback][/right]

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.

Kwanza26

#22

-ST-204+Sep 22, 2005 - 4:21 AM

QUOTE(ST-204 @ Sep 22, 2005 - 4:21 AM)

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.
[right][snapback]337188[/snapback][/right]

LOL... if anything... the 2ZZ copied VTEC. K20A is a FAR FAR FAR better engine than a 2ZZ... IMO (much better than an F20C also). That's one strong arse engine. As for the 2ZZ... in terms of strength... I'd say it's OK. Not bad enough to worry... but not super strong as to not worry. I'm not so worried about the bottom-end however, as I am about the head.

As for toyota's best n/a engine... well... 2ZZ is by far the best for street performance. It makes the most power per liter, has the best potential for streetable power, and is newer. The BEAMS are cool and all... but they don't have any significant advantage aside from their displacement. The 4AG's are old school. They're solid engines, but they'll need significant mods to simply be able to hang with the likes of a 2ZZGE or 3SGE. If you're building a street car... 2ZZ is probably the best. If you're building a race engine... nothing will beat the 3SGE's potential...

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"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"1995 AT200 Celica ST:stocked out daily driver...1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5:silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...1991 SW2x MR2 n/a:bare bones hardtop model soon to be...

FallenHero

#23

-Kwanza26+Sep 22, 2005 - 2:28 AM

QUOTE(Kwanza26 @ Sep 22, 2005 - 2:28 AM)

-ST-204+Sep 22, 2005 - 4:21 AM

QUOTE(ST-204 @ Sep 22, 2005 - 4:21 AM)

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.
[right][snapback]337188[/snapback][/right]

LOL... if anything... the 2ZZ copied VTEC. K20A is a FAR FAR FAR better engine than a 2ZZ... IMO (much better than an F20C also). That's one strong arse engine. As for the 2ZZ... in terms of strength... I'd say it's OK. Not bad enough to worry... but not super strong as to not worry. I'm not so worried about the bottom-end however, as I am about the head.

As for toyota's best n/a engine... well... 2ZZ is by far the best for street performance. It makes the most power per liter, has the best potential for streetable power, and is newer. The BEAMS are cool and all... but they don't have any significant advantage aside from their displacement. The 4AG's are old school. They're solid engines, but they'll need significant mods to simply be able to hang with the likes of a 2ZZGE or 3SGE. If you're building a street car... 2ZZ is probably the best. If you're building a race engine... nothing will beat the 3SGE's potential...
[right][snapback]337247[/snapback][/right]

What he said >>

Hanyo

#24

who fast is a 6gc with the 2zz swap?

isn't the 6th gen heavier then the 7th?

jdg371

#25

the 3.5 v6 (IS350) sounds like a crazy arse N/A motor

Silver94CelicaOwner

#26

I really like the 2ZZGE alot, its a very fun motor and sounds mean as hell....but its been known to have some problems with the lift bolt breaking on earlier GT-S's. I would say the 4AGE and 3SGE have the upper hand because of their potential and proven durability, but the 2ZZGE is a close third because it was very innovative at the time it was released.

If Toyota would only put a newer improved version with a wider lift range and put it in a Scion or Toyota sport coupe it would be great, but it appears its no longer in Toyotas interest. >>

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3rd gen ST205 3SGTE - Alive and boosting.

SSJChar

#27

what are the specs on the 2zz engine? how easy/hard is it to get one into a 6gc gt, and get it working? when i went to go dyno my car, a 7th gen was there too, and he put down... 140hp i think, so around 35 hp more than me. if i ever needed a new engine, i was thinking of either getting a 3sgte, or a beams, but if the 2zz engine is not as expensive, and the swap is easy, might as well.

jdg371

#28

I thought the 2ZZ was more expensive than a 2nd gen 3S?

Even if it IS cheaper getting it to work will probably be alot

bonzaisushi

#29

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a

This post has been edited by bonzaisushi: Sep 25, 2005 - 7:26 PM

Kwanza26

#30

-bonzaisushi+Sep 26, 2005 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE(bonzaisushi @ Sep 26, 2005 - 12:26 AM)

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a
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That's a lame reason...

SR20's are aluminum horsepower engines... and they eat boost like candy. Given iron is stronger... but it doesn't really have a distinct advantage besides that, and with modern technology, design and manufacturing advacements, aluminum is VERY strong. Basically all new engines are all aluminum and engines like the K20A, VQ35DE, and even the older Honda B series have all eaten boost with great success...

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"It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"1995 AT200 Celica ST:stocked out daily driver...1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5:silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies...1991 SW2x MR2 n/a:bare bones hardtop model soon to be...