>

Without WI, and only running 93pump.....I would feel safe running 18psi. You can probably get away with 19psi, but I would start to get worried in the dog days of summer. But 18psi, setup with an efficient IC system (FMIC, or W2A with an upgraded pump) you will be good all year long. Knock seems to occur at or around 20-21psi on a GEN3 still running the CT20B turbo without WI.

As for power, I made 315whp at 18.5psi, so you can expect results similar to this (+/- 5 whp), as this is a stock GEN3, still on stock ECU....so no tuning was done.

The detonation cans are VERY simple to make, I will take pictures of them later for you. After using them once, I will never tune/mod a car without a set, they are truly amazing for what they are. You can hear EVERYTHING that your motor is doing, even before the ECU does. The detonation cans really took the fear/guess work out of pushing the upper limits of the GEN3 setup away for me, because I spent a few hours driving around with the cans hooked up, and the car setup at 16psi.....and just listened. Got familiar with what the motor was supposed to sound like in all conditions. Then, when I went to the dyno, and started turning up the boost, it sounded exactly the same at 24psi as it did at 16psi, showing me the WI was doing its job. Then when I had my boost set for the street (21 psi) I drove around with the cans on for a few hours to check for knock under all conditions, and again.....sounded no different then it did at 16psi.

As for where to hook the cans up to on the motor, it really doesnt matter. I have tried several different locations, and they all have the same "sound/noise/clearness." When I first went to the dyno I had them hooked up underneath the Intake manifold stay bracket, later I then hooked them up to the front of the motor (on the head) which is obviously a lot easier to get too, and still had the same level of sound quality that I had on the block in the back of the motor.

Detonation cans FTMFW!!!!

Any further updates on this Jim???
Keen to see how much more your car is putting out.

>

This is exactly what I'm looking for! Send me the det cans pics via PM or email glaia50@hotmail.com .

Thanks

Sam

I keep on reading this while im doing my swap and cant wait to get my car running and making mad power. lol I guess I will have to wait to really see what the 3rd gen really can do. sry ive been drinkin and its hard to write.

>

yikes, shannon is gettin lonely. WATCH HER CLOSE JIM!!!

we need to talk premium shipping her bud.

have you taken pics of the cans yet? im pretty intrigued by this thread! damn i wish i was following a long time ago! CONGRADS!!

I am sorry everyone due to me cleaning upmu photobucket all my links got ruined...I will hopefully one day when I am completly board fix this thread so it has pictures.

Just an update

Jim is garage less He has been doing all of his work in his driveway and it gets annoying until now...he will now be renting a garage from someone local...It is gonna make things a lot easier for doing stuff to our cars so once he gets his turbo kit from baktash things should be moving along really quick since that,s all hes waiting for atm.

Jim and I cant wait to update both our threads with our new projects and hopefully soon that can happen

>

What's the update with that turbo anyway Shannon? Is it on the way? or is Jim still waiting for "ol dude to figure his **** out?

turbo is on the way as of two days again...hopefully it will be here soon!

For those wanting info on the det can, here is something quick and simple!
http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/9...25-dollars.html

Also your progress so far is pretty impressive man. Dont think the goal was bragging rights but no doubt there is alot to go around i bet ^_^

This has been a great great thread JIM, hopefully I can follow in your footsteps with my WRC build. Perhaps when I get the e-153 trans I will see if my car can also handle 21 PSI at 93 OCT. However, I have to say I am not too pleased with the bash attempts in the early posts to this thread.

Lagos don't take this the wrong way, but I feel you let your August 2002 join date go to your head. It was evident that Jim has experience with boost and the CT20b turbo, and has done some pretty good research on how much boost it can handle. Most importantly, he has first hand experience with the GEN3. It says in your profile you have completed a GEN2 swap, not a GEN3 so I fail to see how in fact you know what the boost limits are for the GEN3 engine without first hand experience, so it could be easily said that your opinions about the engine can easily fall under the category of hearsay.

Like Jim said:

>

Despite learning that a well designed GEN3 setup can in fact handle 21 PSI, Lagos returns with:

>


Just because you have been here for a while, it does not mean you are always 100% correct.
Im not kissing Jim's arse, and im not calling you out Lagos, I just feel that before someone makes an attempt at bashing someone because their join dates were from 2008 or 2009, I feel we need to REALLY read the thread first, and see if what they are saying makes sense, and not just look at someones join date. If some information is iffy, lets see if what they can back up what they are saying, and if not then perhaps people with FIRST HAND experience with what is being discussed can jump in and give "IMO"

Thats how I feel. I may make enemies for what I have Just said, but I could care less, and I will not reply about this again.
Back on topic, very nice thread JIM. I will bookmark this thread if I have any issues with my GEN3. Im also thinking when I get mines up and running you can check it out, im quite curious how you got the factory intercooler activated. I would love to have it work for me.

Thanks Mike.

If you do your own research, understand how things work and why things fail.....you can accomplish your goals without the opinions of others.

Cant wait to see your swap completed man, YOU ARE GOING TO LOVE IT!

>



Oh boy where do I begin.
Fist of all, join date matters a lot. You know why? Because the people who have been in this community for a long time would never dare to attempt to sell bgb downloads that are available for free to other members in an attempt to scam them like you did. You may have tried to play it off as a joke, but you were in fact trying to sell them. We are all here to help each other out, not to take advantage of anyone.

Second, I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not, but Jim and I know each other in person.

Third, this is a discussion thread. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on their own knowledge. Id rather have someone debate me on a point and make me think harder about my theories than a bunch of mindless cheerleaders. I sure Jim feels the same way. As far as I can tell, you know nothing on the topic and are just trying to be a cheerleader.

stop the crap.
take it to PM if you guys have a problem.

I no you make 342whp and all but um.... jim, you dont have one of these



good show sir, i will meet u in the 400+whp club in the new year

You forget I DO have a variant of the GT3071R going on the new build .

And yes, you will be meeting ME in the 400whp club shortly

Cant wait for your build Mike....it should have some AMAZING information in it. GL BRO.

Thanks again Jim for the good information.

That 10:1 AFR is very very very rich, which seems like it would be safe to run an aftermarket turbo with a higher CFM per PSI on the stock ECU. -- What AFR would you expect on the stock cams though?

Are you certain that the duty cycle is 100% at 17psi?

I hit 18psi (and fuel cut) at 5000RPM, Is there enough fuel to keep boosting through to 7000 rpm with a FCD? I have a Gen 3 engine with a CT26 upgraded with a TD04E 46 trim steel compressor and steel shaft. (Stock wastegate & actuator, No helper spring, Flap working correctly)

EDIT: I was going to comment about taking the boost level up so high, but I realised you're running a WRC engine meaning the CT20B you have is a steel wheel, not a ceramic turbine. I don't want to further propagate any hear say but I've heard you cant do this to any old CT20B -- My CT20B shattered at 130,000Kms, 1 week after buying the car and I'm guessing the previous owner had a boost tap and then removed it before selling the car.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Sep 8, 2009 - 4:59 PM

>


Thanks, I am glad you had a good read

Yes, you are correct that 10:1 is VERYYYY rich, so there is A LOT to be had by upgrading to a larger turbo. There is enough fuel left in this setup for around 380whp....and with the addition on a aftermarket FPR....enough for a fair bit over 400whp. I will be posting up the numbers of a stock GEN3 ECU and larger turbo (variant of the GT3071 to be exact)

All these runs WERE done on stock cams. This is a STOCK GEN3 swap. Only mods on the car were Intake, Exhaust, Boost controller, FCD, and Water injection.

You need to dial in your FCD, but make sure it is an active clamp style FCD. The FCD that only clamps the voltage at the desired point, and doesn't change the voltage on a whole. You have PLENTY of fuel with a GEN3 to take your car above 18psi with the factory CT20B. You are hitting fuel cut because your factory ECU thinks that the wastegate actuator has failed, and shuts everything down in an attempt to save the motor from over boosting. Has nothing to do with a shortage of fuel.

I see you mention that you have an upgraded CT26 with 46mm wheel. Turn up the boost and check your AFR's with a wideband, or do it on a dyno. If your upgraded CT26 is anything like the ATS upgraded CT26 (AKA CT27) it is nothing more then a glorified CT20B, and you have the exact same setup that I am running.

Yes, I have read many threads of the ceramic CT20B failing above continues 18+psi pulls. I was not concerned because as you mentioned I am running a WRC motor set, which comes stock with a Steel Wheel CT20B.

Jim for featured ride

Thanks again Jim, I'll be looking forward to the pictures with the Garrett to check for fitment space between the front of the engine/headers/charge cooler and the radiator fans.

Will you be using a manifold adapter with an ext. gate? or will you use an internally gated turbo?

Fingers crossed everything will fit and the compressor output will line up with the charge cooler port using a 2.5" 45 deg. elbow joiner.

>


Anytime man.

It wont be a GT3071, but an S252. The Borg Warner S252 is directly comparable to the GT3071 in terms of spool and power. I only said GT3071 because it is a well known turbo so people would have a better clue on what turbo "size" I chose.

I will not be using a Manifold adapter. This turbo bolts DIRECTLY to the stock manifold, and I will be running it internally gated also, as long as I dont experience any creep issues. If I do, then I will weld and convert to an External wastgate. Since there is no Adpater needed to run this turbo, there are NO clearance issues with the radiator and the fans. IN FACT, this turbo still fits under the factory heat shield so I can resume some sleeper status when I pop my hood.

As for the compressor outlet lining up with the W2A IC inlet, that shouldnt be a problem as I can clock the turbo in any position that I want. If I stay Internally gated, then I will probably make an adapter plate for the acutator so I can postion the turbo to line up with the IC just like the CT20B does, then I can just use a straight coupler just like stock.

This is one of the biggest hold ups on the car, so once the turbo gets in, I can button her all back up again. Then dyno results shortly after.

Any word on the new turbo yet jimbo? Been waiting on a REAL update since febuary!
All this time waiting on a turbo... you should have been enjoying the turbo you DID have.
It's a shame you took everything apart thinking it would be in quick.
Oh well, more time for reasearch isn't a bad thing!!!
Can't wait for some new news!!!

This thread is damned inspiring. Can't wait to see the results of the new turbo.


And Manny, what is going to cost to get the "M" in JDM Guy to fly out to WA to help with my 205 swap this coming spring?

Message from Baktash my turbo has been shipped out today. Shannon's will be shipped in the next couple days. Both projects should be moving forward right in time for winter!

>

I have to be honest. I have no regrets pulling the motor is preperation for the new turbo, because due to the unexpected downtime waiting to receive this turbo, I had time to do A LOT of things that I planned for next year, and years later. In fact, Baktash REALLY took care of me for being so patient, and we worked something out....so dont worry about that . Since I had this unexpected avaiable downtime presented to me, I am able to complete the car a few years eailer then I expected......the saying goes, when you are handed lemons, make lemonade.

Correct, I haven't given a "REAL" update on the car since February, BUT as I said earlier...I will post everything up when I am DONE. There WILL be big updates when I am COMPLETELY finished with the car....as I was awarded options that VERY few people would ever have the chance at, so I capitalized on it. You will just have to keep waiting.....SORRY

>
nice.
like i said in my post:
>

will your numbers be ready intime for my build? so i have a direction to follow (seeing as the s252 vs 3071 is more or less the same)

minus the w2a (unless i change my mind )
and 3s shell

This post has been edited by Mstoochn: Sep 13, 2009 - 8:11 PM

the only thing i wish is that this was an AWD/4wd ST205 in which case you would have done all of my homework for me with proven results.
The cam gears bit threw me off and i assumed you had aftermarket cams installed at some point. still not 100% sure but i gather that you are using stock cams driven by aftermarket cam gears yes?
I was also curious about what the daily driven boost/horsepower limitations of the water to air factory intercooling is. As you are already aware eventually the inlet and outlet pipe diameter will become your horsepower restriction no matter how efficiently it cools the air. I'm also seeing a twin disc (possibly carbon) clutch somewhere in your near future as well (not to be the bearer of bad news lol)

I almost want to DEMAND that this thread become a sticky

I'm sure this is the only thread where the limits a stock ST205 gen 3 engine setup was sensibly discovered in sort of the same way racing engineers would have gone about it.
U cannot imagine how disgusted I am everytime i read about a modded ST205 where the minute the car was delivered to the owner they gutted out every stock part bolted on a different turbo, aftermarket standalone management and injectors, pistons, rods, you name it, and then proceeded to produce less horse power figures than you did. ugh! take the 7th gen celica guy who posted somewhere in this thread he's 300something horsepower with a GT35R turbo HA! *DIES*

Meanwhile the evo guys call our engines crap because they simply turn up the boost and reflash the factory ECU accordingly and clear the 300 ALL WHEEL horse power mark almost with disdain.
I have a really big chip on my shoulder about that. i live on a very tiny/short street in a residential area where there are 6 evo guys who are close friends who continually say that toyota is crap. Their cars are fast as hell using the same approach Jim used. So i traded up and got a used ST205 recently and plan on getting rid of my AE111 4AGE 20v equipped levin soon.
I'm planning to go to certain RIDICULOUS extremes so the car can boast of being an all wheel drive ST205 that retains all the stock parts and also hands them their breakfast. (who's checking the intercooler pump to make sure it's factory right?)
Jim has paved the way so well i wish i could send a thank you card. It's clear now that i need to get an MRII or WRC ct20B to realize enough boost to achieve this which is something i wasn't willing to accept without testing the limits of the ceramic turbine wheel myself.
seriously this thread should be stickied!

First I would like to say thank you for all your compliments.

>

Yes, I am still on bone stock Head with stock cams, running aftermarket Cam gears. I havent even played with the cam gears yet, so there was still a decent amount left in this setup.

As for the Intercooler inlet....I dont know how I feel about that. No matter what size Inlet I run on my intercooler, I will always have to meet the 2" outlet on the compressor. So, I cant see much gains to be had by running a larger Inlet to the W2A IC...as it is only about 4 inches long. So even if the 4" section was "upgraded" to a 3" diameter inlet for those 4", I would still have to neck down to a 2" compressor outlet.

I would say there is less restriction in the stock W2A IC, then running a FMIC with 2.5" piping. Granted the inlet on the ST205 IC is 2 inches...its only 4 inches long. then after that it gets widely opened up into the core, then comes out the 2.75 outlet of the IC. so the only REAL restriction is the inlet....but that is no different size then the turbo outlet...and again, its only 4 inches long. where as a FMIC setup is usually 2.5" piping and about 10 feet of it. Try this, take a straw and blow throw it. See how much force it takes for you to blow throw it. Now, while you are blowing threw the straw, cut the straw with a pair of scissors about 2" from your lips. NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE. This is the same thing that is happening with the W2A IC vs FMIC. The full length staw acts as the FMIC setup, and the shorter straw acts as the stock W2A IC.

But hey, you never know....you may be right, and I may be wrong. I will put some more thought into this, and may even buy one of those cheap W2A IC's on ebay. I can EASILY adapt one of those cores to my new W2A setup....so that would be a fairly cheap and easy way to see if there are in fact any gains or not. I will get back to you on this in the next couple months.

>

I feel the same way...Most people over complicate the ST205 setup, when there is really no need. In the next few months I will be posting 380-400whp numbers STILL on the stock ECU and stock longblock. The only change that will have been made was, would be an aftermarket turbo.

There are 2 other setups that tested the upper limits of the GEN3, and they were done by Hux racing (they were the first, and used stock computer) and ATS racing (they used an aftermarket EMS...so results arent really comparable) Both setups were tested on race gas and on Mr2's. I felt there was enough aggressive intercooling in the Celica to obtain these results on pump gas with water injection (which also added to the aggressive IC I spoke of) and I was set on trying it. As far as I know, I was the first person to make this kind of power on 93pump gas with the stock GEN3 tho....and I had GREAT success.


>

Dont let the EVO guys call our cars crap. They have all there own issues also. What makes the EVO's seem so much faster then our cars is they REGULARLY run about 10-20psi more then your average 3sgte owner. I have no problem running 20+psi day in and day out....and that REALLY leveled the playing field. Evos can call our cars junk all they want, but if fact they are VERY WELL engineered. Ask an EVO to make 500+whp without modifying the head and see his answer LOLOLOL.

another factor that makes them seem faster is the AWD drivetrain....well the AWD conversion is going ot be more and more common in the Celica as the years go on...and after my research and taking all my measurements....it is a bit easier then one may actually think.

And EVO's arent so fast when I catch them on the highway